Putting MPL in LKO

[Jett_Quasar]

I've never bothered much with science data from Kerbin - the cold clammy confines of outer space is where I feel most comfortable.  Why don't you put the lab on a rover and process on ground or am I missing something?

JR

[FullMetalMachinist]

1 hour ago, Jolly_Roger said:

Why don't you put the lab on a rover and process on ground or am I missing something?

The Mobile Processing Lab is utterly useless on the surface of Kerbin.  When you run an experiment through it to process it into data that it then researches into science points, the conversion rate when you load it up with results takes a pretty heavy penalty.  IIRC some of the experiments even turn out zero data when you process them on the ground.

[Evanitis]

Guess Mr Roger meant to process it on the surface of the Mun or Minmus.

[bewing]

24 minutes ago, Evanitis said:

Guess Mr Roger meant to process it on the surface of the Mun or Minmus.

Yes, but you only get a reasonable deal on the experiment->data conversion if you process it in the same SOI where it was taken. Kerbin data in Kerbin SOI, Mun data in Mun SOI, etc.

Quote

 IIRC some of the experiments even turn out zero data when you process them on the ground.

Almost all experiments turn out zero data when landed on Kerbin. The last few other ones produce one point worth of data.

Quote

Collecting 470 results is a bit of work, some of those are pretty hard to get ("splashed down in the badlands" anyone?).

You can collect Highlands landed, Highlands splashed, Badlands landed, and Badlands splashed all at the same location. It takes a couple hours of flying time to get to the Badlands and back, if you don't mind flying. You get 218 points of science for doing it. You only have to make three flights to collect every last bit of science on the ground on Kerbin -- is that really so hard? And anyway, career mode is supposed to involve a little bit of grinding. Is everyone really so impatient these days?

Edited February 21, 2016 by bewing

[Evanitis]

7 minutes ago, bewing said:

Yes, but you only get a reasonable deal on the experiment->data conversion if you process it in the same SOI where it was taken. Kerbin data in Kerbin SOI, Mun data in Mun SOI, etc.

I'm pretty sure that's not true. Where did you get that information?

I just checked wiki, this guide and another one, and a third one. None of them mentioned such. But the last linked post had this line:

On 2015. 05. 05. at 9:40 PM, BluetoothThePirate said:

Being on the surface or on a more distant body increases data yields so the lab's data buffer will fill up sooner, but it still takes the same amount of time to process it into science no matter where it's located.

[bewing]

2 minutes ago, Evanitis said:

I'm pretty sure that's not true. Where did you get that information?

Then you missed this quote from the wiki:

" and if the experiment is from the same body as the one the lab is orbiting or landed on the data value is greater. "

 

[Evanitis]

Dang. You are right again.

Guess I should stop arguing about a part that I decided not to use ever again a long time ago.

[Jett_Quasar]

1 hour ago, FullMetalMachinist said:

The Mobile Processing Lab is utterly useless on the surface of Kerbin.  When you run an experiment through it to process it into data that it then researches into science points, the conversion rate when you load it up with results takes a pretty heavy penalty.  IIRC some of the experiments even turn out zero data when you process them on the ground.

Good to know - that must be new to 1.0.5 I thought I saw a Scott Manley video where he build a ground based lab.

JR

[FullMetalMachinist]

2 hours ago, bewing said:

Is everyone really so impatient these days?

I know I probably shouldn't, but I take slight offense to this comment.  It's not about being impatient, (at lest for me) it's about being efficient with my play time, which I don't have a whole lot of.

2 hours ago, bewing said:

It takes a couple hours of flying time to get to the Badlands and back, if you don't mind flying. You get 218 points of science for doing it. You only have to make three flights to collect every last bit of science on the ground on Kerbin

For fun, I ran a little experiment.  I built a ship that could do a simple land-and-return mission to the Mun, and loaded it up with the science instruments that you'd likely have unlocked by the time you unlock the MPL (goo, temp, pressure, materials study).  Then I launched, flew, landed, and returned, gathering all the science I could from the Mun (I'm assuming that at this point the a career or science game most players will have already gotten all the flying & high/low science from Kerbin).  This whole process (from building to splashdown) took only 45 minutes, and got me 732 science points. If you don't land, and just do a simply flyby that takes you through low and high space over the mun, that's 340 points, and you could easily knock off 15 minutes of time because you don't land.  

And all of this is before you even consider the MPL. Add maybe 20 minutes to the 45 for docking with an MPL in orbit, and the science from just the flyby will just about fill up the 500 data. So then you just time warp a few times to turn that 500 hundred data into 2500 science points.  This is a lifesaver for people who might only get an hour to sit down and play at a time.  In terms of science point per hour of my time, Kerbin science experiments really aren't worth it. I do the minimum that I have to in order to start, you know, flying in space, which is the whole point of the game.

I apologize if I'm coming off a bit prickly, I just feel really strongly about maximizing what I can do in-game when I finally get some time to play it.

[bewing]

2 hours ago, FullMetalMachinist said:

flying in space, which is the whole point of the game

For me, the whole point of the game is about roleplaying being a Space Agency. And a space agency would be frugal with funds and science points. And take things step-by-step. First Kerbin. Then LKO. Then the Mun. Verifying safety and functionality at every step. Maybe sending off a scientific probe into orbit around the Sun early on. But certainly not just sending a kerbaled mission hither and yon to gather some low-hanging science points because they could. For me, it's not about efficient use of my gaming time. I have plenty of that.

And anyway, for all you explorers out there, Kerbin is a celestial body too. Don't you want to explore it?

 

[monophonic]

1 minute ago, bewing said:

For me, the whole point of the game is about roleplaying being a Space Agency. And a space agency would be frugal with funds and science points. And take things step-by-step. First Kerbin. Then LKO. Then the Mun. Verifying safety and functionality at every step. Maybe sending off a scientific probe into orbit around the Sun early on. But certainly not just sending a kerbaled mission hither and yon to gather some low-hanging science points because they could. For me, it's not about efficient use of my gaming time. I have plenty of that.

And anyway, for all you explorers out there, Kerbin is a celestial body too. Don't you want to explore it?

 

Yes, that's all right and a good way to have fun. Does that excuse calling us, who can spare less than 10 hours a month to play, impatient for wanting to proceed a little quicker?

[bewing]

Does it excuse you, for arguing with me, when I take it slower?

[monophonic]

9 hours ago, bewing said:

Does it excuse you, for arguing with me, when I take it slower?

No, but I am not arguing with you for taking it slower. Here, let me make it easier to read:

9 hours ago, monophonic said:

Yes, that's all right and a good way to have fun. Does that excuse calling us, who can spare less than 10 hours a month to play, impatient for wanting to proceed a little quicker?

My argument is with your calling others impatient. You should not feel invalidated because other people choose to play with a more rushed pace than you.

[Camaron]

Maybe you could have one pod right near the ground, but when you prepare to launch, transfer crew to the real pod up top, and just leave the lower one on the ground. I dunno, my science comes from the Jool system or something, like its supposed to

[KerikBalm]

I thought the amount of "data" you get from processing an experiment is the same regardless of where you process it... and the only thing that changes is how fast that data converts to science points.

Are you telling me that a kerbin surface sample yields more data if processed in Eeloo orbit?

[eddiew]

It never seemed worthwhile to take Kerbin data up to orbit... by the time I had a science lab, I was already hitting Mun and Minmus, and it's relatively easy to aerobrake into LKO and rendezvous on the way home.

Of course, if KSP worked like NASA/ESA, your kerbonauts would have the option to carry n kilograms of data you have previously collected with them, but you're going to have to fight the system if you want to mimic reality here. The rear-pod suggestions seem like the way to go 

[FullMetalMachinist]

7 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

I thought the amount of "data" you get from processing an experiment is the same regardless of where you process it... and the only thing that changes is how fast that data converts to science points.

Are you telling me that a kerbin surface sample yields more data if processed in Eeloo orbit?

The part I put in bold is correct, to an extent. I'm not sure the exact formula it follows, but the conversion rate from science result to data changes depending on where the results came from and where the lab is physically located when you process the result into data. 

The conversion rate of data to science points is always 1->5, but the speed that this happens at (the sci/day line in the right click menu) depends on how many scientists (1 or 2) are in the lab researching, and what level those scientists are. It also has some kind of exponential function that changes the sci/day based on how much data is in the lab (more data = more sci/day,  all other things being equal). So it pays to keep the lab topped off with data every so often. 

Edited February 22, 2016 by FullMetalMachinist

[AbacusWizard]

Usually by the time I'm ready to launch a LKO station with a lab, I have a small mission returning from a Mun or Minmus landing, so I dock at the lab and process all the experiments before bringing them down to home base. Of course it doesn't hurt to grab a few science points on the way up (crew report, temperature, pressure, mystery goo, and materials bay "while flying at" and "in space near").

[bewing]

OK, it turns out that after all that I was being stupid and not testing things sufficiently.

It turns out that an MPL in flight is just as good as an MPL in orbit. So if you just want one to process Kerbin data, you don't need a rocket. If you just get it one meter off the ground before you process data, you avoid the (nearly infinte) landed data penalty.

And that makes it trivial to access the thing on the ground, to load experiments into it.

[bewing]

For those of you who have (so far) enjoyed looking at my wackier designs, here's a Kerbin MPL jet that works rather nicely for all that it's an engineering abomination:

In order for the gigantor to not rip off, the airspeed must stay below 120 m/s -- so the jet needed some extra lift at very low speeds.

 

[FullMetalMachinist]

@bewing I know that we have different opinions as far as play style where this thread is concerned. That's fine, we can do our own thing and still get along. So I really don't mean any offense when I ask this. 

I'm really curious why you are so dead set on not only gathering all possible science from Kerbin, but also running that through an MPL? Is it a completionist thing, and for the design and engineering challenge? Or a role playing thing? If so, great, do what makes you happy. I just don't get why you would go through the trouble when there is science that is worth so much more than what's on Kerbin pretty easily accessible at Mun/Minmus. 

[KerbMav]

On 22.2.2016 at 11:28 AM, KerikBalm said:

I thought the amount of "data" you get from processing an experiment is the same regardless of where you process it... and the only thing that changes is how fast that data converts to science points.

Are you telling me that a kerbin surface sample yields more data if processed in Eeloo orbit?

You get a bonus for processing experiments from a certain SOI in said SOI and another bonus for being landed. Landed on Kerbin penalizes this heavily, so combinded with the overall lower values for experiments done on Kerbin, even the boni - which still apply - do not result in high numbers for a lab at KSC.

On 21.2.2016 at 7:14 PM, Jolly_Roger said:

Good to know - that must be new to 1.0.5 I thought I saw a Scott Manley video where he build a ground based lab.

JR

I think it is a bit older than 1.0.5 - if I remember correctly it was always that way since they changed the function of the lab from boosting transmision rewards to processing data.

On 21.2.2016 at 5:49 PM, bewing said:

And anyway, career mode is supposed to involve a little bit of grinding. Is everyone really so impatient these days?

 

On 21.2.2016 at 8:44 PM, FullMetalMachinist said:

I know I probably shouldn't, but I take slight offense to this comment.  It's not about being impatient, (at lest for me) it's about being efficient with my play time, which I don't have a whole lot of.
...
I apologize if I'm coming off a bit prickly, I just feel really strongly about maximizing what I can do in-game when I finally get some time to play it.

It depends on what you want to do. If the fun for you is filling out the tech tree and launching a nuclear wessel (sic!) to Eeloo as fast as possible (real time like), than your approach is certainly the best.
Others find fun in going slow and enjoying the low tech solutions a bit longer, experimenting with different approaches to the game.

It is human to get a bit defensive regarding the own perspective when facing bewilderment about it and it is also human to get a bit offended when meeting with defensiveness. Maybe we should stay a bit kerbal here?

On 22.2.2016 at 11:39 AM, eddiew said:

It never seemed worthwhile to take Kerbin data up to orbit... by the time I had a science lab, I was already hitting Mun and Minmus, and it's relatively easy to aerobrake into LKO and rendezvous on the way home.

Of course, if KSP worked like NASA/ESA, your kerbonauts would have the option to carry n kilograms of data you have previously collected with them, but you're going to have to fight the system if you want to mimic reality here. The rear-pod suggestions seem like the way to go 

 

22 hours ago, FullMetalMachinist said:

I'm really curious why you are so dead set on not only gathering all possible science from Kerbin, but also running that through an MPL? Is it a completionist thing, and for the design and engineering challenge? Or a role playing thing? If so, great, do what makes you happy. I just don't get why you would go through the trouble when there is science that is worth so much more than what's on Kerbin pretty easily accessible at Mun/Minmus. 

 

I am quite often doing the same thing. I lower my science gain in the difficulty settings to make the lab worthwhile too. In already two saves I took a rover with all available experiments and did them all twice, including EVA and surface samples (both available for Kerbals in external seats, missed out on crew reports here ), next to each building at KSC and the nearby biomes (including the exploitive patch of tundra north of KSC ).

But, I use ShipManifest, a mod that allows you to move crew, fuel, science and the like from some windows instead of clicking around your craft. *confession smilie*

[bewing]

On 2/23/2016 at 5:29 AM, FullMetalMachinist said:

I'm really curious why you are so dead set on not only gathering all possible science from Kerbin, but also running that through an MPL? Is it a completionist thing, and for the design and engineering challenge? Or a role playing thing? If so, great, do what makes you happy. I just don't get why you would go through the trouble when there is science that is worth so much more than what's on Kerbin pretty easily accessible at Mun/Minmus. 

I'm not sure if I have my settings similar to KerbMav, but it sure doesn't sound like your settings.

I have the lab before I've even made it to Kerbin orbit the first time, on Kerbin day one. On the tech tree I have one liquid fuel engine unlocked, and the fuel tank for it holds 180 fuel. I have Hammer SRBs. And that's it for rockets!

I get the lab about the same time as I get the Wheesley jet engine. I suppose that I could build some giant crazy dangerous monstrostiy of a rocket and make a successful return trip to Mun/Minmus. But the VAB is level 1, and the launchpad is level 1, and the SPH is level 1, and I'm scrounging for science points and funds to complete my earliest contracts.

As far as science goes, I haven't even unlocked the accelerometer, the variometer, or the grav meter when I get the lab. Getting 3 points a day out of the lab at this stage of the game sounds very nice. It's not completionist, it's just one way of unlocking the early tech tree to get off Kerbin in the first place.

And I said above in a response to you, I do roleplay for frugality. Why should KSA leave its employees playing video games in the Astronaut Complex, when they could be out gathering science points? Especially when it's not the tiniest bit hard to do! Once you have all the instruments, you take one final trip around KSC, and make just three stinking plane trips, and you've got everything there is to get on Kerbin. And then you can go to Mun/Minmus and get all those points. I can understand if you only have 10 hours a month to play that you can't spare the time to fly even one jet anywhere, but that sounds like an extreme case to me. I can't understand why anyone would even play career mode if they have so little time.

 

Edited February 24, 2016 by bewing

[Terwin]

1 hour ago, bewing said:

 I can't understand why anyone would even play career mode if they have so little time.
 

Same reason you play career mode I would imagine, they want to maximize their fun/play-time ratio.

Something to consider:  Once you have the MPL unlocked, you can access the entire science tree without ever leaving the KSC again.

Just build a MPL into a 'hopper' that can hover on (jet) engines long enough to convert experiments into data, load it up with KSC data, lift off to process as needed and take it back to the runway/launch pad to recover it when it can no longer generate more science.  Recover for 100%(minus trivial amounts of fuel), and repeat.

 

Yes, I have performed experiments splashed down in the badlands after flying half way around Kerbin(it was part of my Caveman game), but now that I have done it once, I no longer find it an interesting challenge.

I will admit that before I launch a ship with a lab on board, I always perform and collect the launch-pad experiments(to be loaded later) and then perform and convert all available experiments both flying low and flying high, but that is mostly to give my scientists something to chew on while I travel to my destination.(currently my first lab-ship is preparing for a final landing on the Mun to re-fuel before heading to Minmus, having already visited every Mun biome for which I had not yet collected surface samples, then rescuing a Kerbal and his command pod from a wonky orbit of the Mun).  I like to think that the tourists who are paying for the expedition are getting their money's worth, especially as there will be a free trip to the Kerbol SOI...  (I just hope I don't run low on rations before I get back to Kerbin, or else I may lose my 5 star rating as a tourist attraction.  Had to spend a lot more time than planned harvesting fuel because I was at less than 100m/s d-v when I landed in a ore-poor area of the Mun )

[FullMetalMachinist]

1 hour ago, bewing said:

I have the lab before I've even made it to Kerbin orbit the first time, on Kerbin day one. On the tech tree I have one liquid fuel engine unlocked, and the fuel tank for it holds 180 fuel. I have Hammer SRBs. And that's it for rockets!

Then it really just comes to a difference in play style. Instead of concentrating on Kerbin ground/flying science, I usually make orbit by my third rocket launch, and am flying a small rocket on a Mun flyby by the fifth. I don't really even touch planes before I've sent my first unmanned interplanetary prove. 

As for role playing, I would rather my Kerbal Space Program scientists work on science from space.