[1.1.3] KSO (Kerbin Shuttle Orbiter) Legacy Packs & Development Updates

[helldiver]

Wow this blew up, my sincere apologies to everyone for not checking back. Will also answer questions sent to my box (which I also appreciate).

KSO Standard (released in late 2013?) and KSO "Super" 25 (released in 2014-early 2015)

• Nazari will be taking ownership of those two shuttle project files once the EX is complete and released. He will continue to keep them up to date as his time and discretion allows.
• They will no longer be a part of the KSOS Mod for KSP, making sure that is clear since I don't want folks upset in the future when the KSO EX drops.
• The 3D Models and mesh data will be released as part of an alternate downloads pack. Several people, including our own testing team wished to have them to learn, build on, expand, or even release their own mod. In other words they will become a part of the KSP Modding community. This is an effort in my part to encourage and promote more folks getting involved in 3D modeling, modding, model making, and learning how game art is made.

Why are the two shuttles being taken out of the mod and becoming their own thing? Why won't you work on them anymore?

• When I built the first one, I didn't know what KSPs internal requirements were. It wasn't until I worked with Nazari through three mods.... (KSO, Super 25 and the satellite parts)... that I finally understood how KSP "worked". There were also a lot of communication issues between him and I. In some cases he'd use different terminology than I'm used to, causing big issues (like referring to Transforms where I call them Pivots and so on).
• This also affected size. When I built the first one, my goal was really to have a mini shuttle. This was because I never expected there to be much interest in anything bigger than 1.5m to haul stuff up to space. I figured the community wanting a shuttle was small as it were. I even talked about this a couple times in that thread and it seemed to me anyone wanting to haul stuff up would just use conventional rockets. So after lots of demands I put the KSO "Super" 25 together as a temporary solution until KSOS Phase 6 (KSO EX).
• With the KSO EX, Nazari and I came to a conclusion: Why waste people's resource space as it is, just make the EX 2.5+ and solve the resource issue in one go. No more 4+ textures hogging up memory, no more dealing with two shuttles that need constant upgrading and repairs as Squad updates the game. I'm sure you guys can see where this is going. In other words a single shuttle can be made to look 2 times better, have more features, have better textures and still take up a smaller footprint on your hard drive (ergo, less memory on KSP loading being hogged up).
• Since the first shuttle I learned a lot, including upgrading various artwork creation tools and my entire art pipeline has changed. For that reason, the older shuttles are slowly becoming incompatible on my end. The new shuttle is essentially compatible with all next-gen artwork. That means the new shuttle can potentially support a PBR type arrangement if Squad ever takes advantage of Unity 5's shader capabilities. I will be experimenting with Nazari on this.
• KSP has changed and there are new features coming in that the older shuttles couldn't support. The new shuttle will have the foundation for internal views besides just IVAs. The older shuttles would have to be re-baked and essentially re-UVed in order to support that sort of thing. Just not worth the time and effort.

Why no more twin tail arrangement?

• To lower the amount of parts on the shuttle in game. Twin tails also presented all sorts of problems especially with RCS getting in the way and such.
• The EX is more of a modern take on NASA's space shuttle, rather than a Kerbal space shuttle while still retaining some of the look.
• Simplicity

How modular is the EX compared to the other shuttles?

• As modular as it can be. The problem will always remain: Blending the delta wing into the cargo bay while still making the landing gear close in and be smooth. I think we have a good middle ground with this new design.

• I'm trying to make as many of the parts as modular as possible as seen above. You will be able to pull off the RCS blocks and re-arrange them or use them in other projects. The tanks can also be surface mounted on other projects. The shroud in the rear can be toggled on and off, in case prefer to reveal the guts of the thing or if you have a mod that allows your Kerbals to access the plumbing for repairs. All parts where possible will have this capability including the rear end of the shuttle where the SSME's mount.
• Speaking of SSMEs, the KSO EX aside from new OMS engines will replace the project SSMEs with the Thrustmax Aerojet (thrust not decided yet). Although stylized to be slightly "kerbally" they are highly detailed and modeled after the Space Shuttle Engines (Aerojet Rocketdyne RS-25)

• The old lift vehicles will not be a part of the KSOS mod any more, they too will be retired along with the other shuttles. The KSO EX will have a completely new lift vehicle incompatible with the old models. Currently we're discussing that the new EFT will be 3.5m capable. It will follow the NASA Space Shuttle lifter design and not the Buran design. This is because the new lifter will be designed with radial symmetry in mind a problem the older shuttles always had. This new lifter will be fully modular.

Naming them and colors was always an issue, how does the new project solve that?

• Good question. As I said earlier it is my intent to keep the main texture "skin" completely separate from flags and names. Unity 5 shaders as long as a decal is placed over a pixel shaded model (as opposed to vertex shaded), it shouldn't have z-buffer issues. I'm not at that point yet, but it is my intent to experiment with removing the AO from the diffuse so that you guys only get a color diffuse and can simply just recolor a texture as you like. The name can be changed in the VAB and you'll be able to change it and make your own. Unfortunately you will have to know how to handle image alphas in order for your own custom name to show up correctly.

Will we be able to see the interior from the outside?

• Unfortunately no, not until Squad supports that feature (EVA looking into IVA) by default. However, I'm putting together a middle ground compromise mainly for glass shader effects. The main reason being that it would probably kill people's computers to be able to see into the actual IVA directly from the outside. This is not to be confused with the shuttle internals which are low resolution models.

Will there be windows in the moon door to see up as you dock, will there be windows looking into the cargo bay?

• Yes and yes

Flaps?

• No, we're done with that. It was a mistake in my part. CSEs will still extend but will operate like flaperons essentially.

What parts are not modular?

• The main wings. This is because of how radial symmetry works in KSP. The bottom side of them is black with the tiles, the top is white with the heat blankets (FIB). The bottom has the landing gear wells and doors. Also, the wings root chords themselves would not be symmetrical if you drew a line through the root rib.
• The rear end. For obvious reasons, the rear end can only fit the cargo bay. An adaptor will be made for this shuttle like the original had but will not be part of the first release.
• The cargo bay. You may be able to stack the cargo bay to make a longer shuttle, however, I'm not sure if that is possible as of the last edit (been working on other parts and haven't revisited the fuselage yet). As long as I don't need more space for the main landing gear, it should be stackable creating a long "shuttle train" if that's what you're into.
• The cockpit. Like the rear end, I -will- release a cockpit to KSP adaptor that will allow you to use the cockpit on KSP's stock space shuttle. However, like the rear end shroud, this will not be part of the first release.
• Front nosecone. This part is in a shape that only fits the cockpit. Also, this part contains the front RCS module sub assembly.

Will there be an airbrake?

• Yes. Nazari had some issues with it on the rudder, but I can put airbrakes anywhere, we just haven't decided where we want it yet.

Does the rudder have a spot for a drogue chute?

• Yes.

How tall will the new shuttle be (how high off the ground), or will the kerbals not be able to walk under it?

• Sadly, I have a feeling the Kerbals might not be able to walk under this shuttle this time. That has to do with how much space we have for the main landing gear to fold and fit inside the wings without clipping. Since the new landing gear do not compress, chances are that the new shuttle might not have enough ground clearance to allow a kerbal to walk under it with a helmet on. There would be no way of knowing for now.

Any other questions feel free to send them my way or ask here.

[Avalon304]

17 minutes ago, helldiver said:

 

This is the first time Ive seen the Aerojet textured... holy hannah its pretty...

[Whovian41110]

Are there any other OMS engines that have KMGimbal and are more powerful than the Omnimax 40?

[Raptor22]

Helldiver, would you be able to make it so that we have the OPTION of making it either twin-tailed or single-tailed? I love the old V-tail design, and I want to be able to use it in this. Could you see if you could make it so that the parts can be used independently (so that it is not a strict design, where the parts can ONLY be used for one purpose, and work ONLY for that purpose), so that we can make the shuttle work either way. 

This is like with how you had the original KSO. You originally had it a single-tailed design, but you then chose to move the tail fin(s) to make a v-tail design. The KSO EWBCL doesn't quite have this freedom since it has the texture underneath where the tail fins should go, so I would have to cover it up with parts or edit the textures.

You did talk about having the texture change and being able to change the name. You could use the firespitter texture switch so that we can change between singe and twin-tailed versions. This would allow you to still be able to see all of the components (by the way, that stuff is GORGEOUS) and have freedom to use different designs.

You could also make two different tail designs, so that one has the OMS housing built in. Although, we could just put on the oms housings in the original locations and put the tails on them.

Doing this would make quite a lot of people happy, and make them shut up about "Why aren't you having a V-tail?"

 

This has to be my favorite mod of all time. The shuttles are absolutely amazing, and the designs are beautiful. They are very versatile for having a simplistic, puzzle-piece-like design. I have turned them into passenger planes, atmospheric cargo transports, SSTOs, fighter jets, bombers, VTOLs, and so much more! I hope that the KSO EX can have the same versatility and customization options that its previous ancestors have. 

 

Also, if you need any help testing the EX, I'd be thrilled to help you guys search for bugs and help find solutions to them to the best of my ability. I have tried making some mods a little while back, so I have a decent understanding of what is going on when there are bugs. I really do love seeing things grow, and I love helping that growth even more.

PM me if you want to talk. Please at least take the things I have said into consideration.

Thanks for all of your hard work! You and the others are amazing!

[Whovian41110]

So I crashed one of my shuttles a little bit outside of KSC after my control surfaces and front gear burnt off.  Rescue truck en route.  Would it be appropriate to post an imgur album of that here?

(NVM) my rescue failed

Edited June 4, 2016 by Whovian41110

[Avalon304]

2 hours ago, Whovian41110 said:

Are there any other OMS engines that have KMGimbal and are more powerful than the Omnimax 40?

Other OMS engines equipped with KMGimbal? The only other ones I can think of are the 2 different OMS engines included in the space shuttle engines pack, by sarbian, but Im not sure of their power when compared to the 40t.

 

[MrMeeb]

I remember the old KSOS thread first popping up, around the same time that I also popped up on these forums. It was the first thread I actively followed, and seeing these new development photos has reminded me entirely of that feeling of giddy excitement I had when seeing those first photos. Props to you for filling me with excitement for this spectacular mod once again!

My only concern/opinion is that a 3.75m ET may be too small in terms of proportions. The popular size for shuttle (you said it's almost like a modernised version, so surely it'd work off similar architecture?) ETs for a vehicle of this scale is more in the realms of 5m, and that works a bit nicer (in my opinions) in terms of the general shape of things. It looks more reasonable that the LV needs a 5m tank's worth of fuel to get to orbit than a 3.75 worth's imo  

[kujuman]

Just inquiring as to what you're using/planning for modular SRBs

[Drakenex]

those SSME looks unreal!! also " It will follow the NASA Space Shuttle lifter design and not the Buran design " great, not a fan of the Buran style, I've always used the KSO tank with the Super 25.

[helldiver]

3 hours ago, Raptor22 said:

Helldiver, would you be able to make it so that we have the OPTION of making it either twin-tailed or single-tailed? I love the old V-tail design, and I want to be able to use it in this.

 

New EX is like 75% modular, you can build it however you wish. You'll just have to rotate the rcs or add more depending. However as my post stated the Rear end is not modular and the firewall in the rear will have its tiles made in a way where they properly sculpt around the RCS modules as if fitted as shown in my preview shots. So if you decide to put two rudders on it, you'll have to either put them on top the RCS modules (totally doable), move the RCS modules (such as just use one instead of two) or move things around. The "skin" of the rear end won't have details on it like the super 25 did.

However, the new KSO EX has interior. In other words, all the plumbing, electrical, frame work, and such is visible. So if you open up the rear end, you'll see clipping if you put the RCS modules elsewhere, or if you use a cut-away view.

I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself fully. Best to hold off until I have better more complete shots of everything.

I'm not really open to discussing KSO EX development. Also don't want to spam up this thread with EX development posts, just wanted to post and show progress shots so people know I'm still alive

 

[Raptor22]

1 minute ago, helldiver said:

New EX is like 75% modular, you can build it however you wish. You'll just have to rotate the rcs or add more depending. However as my post stated the Rear end is not modular and the firewall in the rear will have its tiles made in a way where they properly sculpt around the RCS modules as if fitted as shown in my preview shots. So if you decide to put two rudders on it, you'll have to either put them on top the RCS modules (totally doable), move the RCS modules (such as just use one instead of two) or move things around. The "skin" of the rear end won't have details on it like the super 25 did.

However, the new KSO EX has interior. In other words, all the plumbing, electrical, frame work, and such is visible. So if you open up the rear end, you'll see clipping if you put the RCS modules elsewhere, or if you use a cut-away view.

I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself fully. Best to hold off until I have better more complete shots of everything.

I'm not really open to discussing KSO EX development. Also don't want to spam up this thread with EX development posts, just wanted to post and show progress shots so people know I'm still alive

 

Alright. Well, I guess I can compensate for that. If there are some clipping things, I'll probably just ignore it. 

Thanks for letting me know about that! I'm glad to hear that it is mostly modular. That'll allow for it to be as versatile as its ancestors; the original KSO and the EWBCL.

One suggestion (you could do this later) is to see if you can have it compatible with JSI transparent pods. Using the cutaway view to see the internal parts is nice, but I would still like to see into the cockpit without seeing all of the cables and hydraulic lines and such. (although it would be cool if they were animated, so you could see the hydraulic pistons moving as you move the control surfaces)

Perhaps you can make a separate development thread. Lots of people (including myself) enjoy seeing mods and games being sculpted, progressively looking better and better as they make them, new things coming along. If you were to release some betas for the people to bug-test, that thread could also be a place to report bugs, or you could even make a separate bug-reporting thread. This thread seems mostly like a sort of a Q&A, with some help for bugs, and feedback. The separate thread(s) could be solely for reporting bugs and posting development screenshots. 

 

But really, I think you should make a development thread. I love seeing mods and games come to life, starting from the ground-up and sculpting it slowly into its final product. I'm pretty sure I am not alone.

Also, it's great to hear from you again!  You hadn't posted in so long I thought that you had passed it off to Nazari!

[astro_119]

btw i know you guys are working hard on making phase 6 but the latest ksp release is 1.1 but you guys are making it for 1.0.5, is there a reason?

also the last kso version supported 0.90 but 1.0 was released and you didnt update the mod, is there a reason for this too?

[Avalon304]

17 minutes ago, BlaZe119 said:

btw i know you guys are working hard on making phase 6 but the latest ksp release is 1.1 but you guys are making it for 1.0.5, is there a reason?

also the last kso version supported 0.90 but 1.0 was released and you didnt update the mod, is there a reason for this too?

When Phase 6 comes out, the entire KSOS mod (which so far is the EX, the space station parts and the space center vehicles) will be for 1.1. Nazari is also working on updating the two legacy shuttles for 1.1 as well. This topic however is listed for 1.0.5 because that is the latest version of KSP that the KSOS currently supports.

[astro_119]

1 minute ago, Avalon304 said:

When Phase 6 comes out, the entire KSOS mod (which so far is the EX, the space station parts and the space center vehicles) will be for 1.1. Nazari is also working on updating the two legacy shuttles for 1.1 as well. This topic however is listed for 1.0.5 because that is the latest version of KSP that the KSOS currently supports.

OOooohhhhh........ Ok thanks

[BananaTime101]

Do you think that you will ever build a pad for KSO EX? Like the orbiter access arm and the beanie cap? Thanks.

[Adam Kerman]

The landing gear is stuck open any ideas to fix it?

[astro_119]

30 minutes ago, Adam Kerman said:

The landing gear is stuck open any ideas to fix it?

i know it doesnt work, but i know a way to get around that and still have the KSO work.

just get the small landing gear and stick it on the kso, then use the structural panels to cover it up

for the super 25 use the large structural panels and use the medium landing gears

Edited June 6, 2016 by BlaZe119

[Sudragon]

2 hours ago, Adam Kerman said:

The landing gear is stuck open any ideas to fix it?

Get Bill out there with the big hammer?

[Raptor22]

It is kind of sad you guys are retiring the old shuttles. Are you at least going to keep them up-to-date? Another update like 1.1 could really screw them over.

[Adam Kerman]

11 minutes ago, Raptor22 said:

It is kind of sad you guys are retiring the old shuttles. Are you at least going to keep them up-to-date? Another update like 1.1 could really screw them over.

I agree I tried CSS and I think 1.1 screwed up the cargo bay doors they were stuck open

[BananaTime101]

Have you guys been working on KSOEX for a while or have you only just started? 

[Synthesis]

On 6/4/2016 at 3:19 AM, helldiver said:

Wow this blew up, my sincere apologies to everyone for not checking back. Will also answer questions sent to my box (which I also appreciate).

So glad to see an update coming! Really looking forward to it. Two questions if I may ask:

Before the project splits as you've described, will there be an antenna added? It always struck me as a little odd that the KSO was so incredibly elaborate but required you add an antenna.

You may be the wrong person to ask in light of the changes you've described, but was anyone taking a look at the rotor for the included helicopter? It seemed to be missing a spinning animation (though I can't test it anymore without 1.0.5).

Not really important issues but I thought I'd bring them up--I'm just happy to see that KSO will continue to be supported by other modders, and the additions you've been working on look really promising! 

[astro_119]

for now, before phase 6 dont install the klockheed martin plugin it messes up stuff aswell as the oms engines

19 hours ago, Raptor22 said:

It is kind of sad you guys are retiring the old shuttles. Are you at least going to keep them up-to-date? Another update like 1.1 could really screw them over.

avalon told me this, it says 1.0.5 because thats what phase 5 supports. but phase 6 will support the 1.1 ksp release

also nazari is working on the 1.1 versions of the KSO Dauntless and KSO Super 25

[Raptor22]

2 hours ago, BlaZe119 said:

for now, before phase 6 dont install the klockheed martin plugin it messes up stuff aswell as the oms engines

avalon told me this, it says 1.0.5 because thats what phase 5 supports. but phase 6 will support the 1.1 ksp release

also nazari is working on the 1.1 versions of the KSO Dauntless and KSO Super 25

I've been keeping up with this. I know that it says 1.0.5 because it hasn't been updated yet. That's not what I'm asking.

I was asking if he would KEEP updating them. They will be retired in 1.1, so will he keep them up-to-date so that another 1.1-like update won't completely break them.

Also, Helldiver, why aren't you having the wheels extend?

The past two had extending landing gear. I know that you want to make it like the real space shuttle, but you should keep it Kerbalized. I remember reading that the reason why you didn't want OMS pods on the other shuttles is because you wanted a simplistic, Kerbalized look. 

 

Also, will the texture be similar to the last two shuttles? Those photos (of the orbiter) are just the untextured low LOD model, but will you stick to the same style that the two shuttles had, like this:

Will the texture for the skin and heat shield and so on be similar?

[Avalon304]

5 hours ago, BlaZe119 said:

for now, before phase 6 dont install the klockheed martin plugin it messes up stuff aswell as the oms engines

 

I dont think sarbian plans to update the KM_Gimbal plugin for 1.1+ at all... so... probably dont install it after Phase 6 either...