[1.11] RemoteTech v1.9.9 [2020-12-19]

[kerrigan778]

Any way to change the limits on the root range model, I am both bothered that pointing a strong dish at an omnidirectional antenna won't change the minimum range of the omni but also do not want a DP-10 to be able to handle anything in the Kerbin system just because I have a half decent listening array. Maybe just limit it to 3-10 times the base omni range instead of 100 or something. Is this handled in a config file or could it be? Thank you for all the work on RemoteTech, I love this mod.

[Kenny Kerman]

You are gods.

[TaxiService]

8 hours ago, kerrigan778 said:

Any way to change the limits on the root range model, I am both bothered that pointing a strong dish at an omnidirectional antenna won't change the minimum range of the omni but also do not want a DP-10 to be able to handle anything in the Kerbin system just because I have a half decent listening array. Maybe just limit it to 3-10 times the base omni range instead of 100 or something. Is this handled in a config file or could it be? Thank you for all the work on RemoteTech, I love this mod.

Hi,

I am not sure if I understand your intention correctly. You would like to cut down from the default 100 times to 3-10 times the base omni range, right? I found this entry in the online RT manual, in which you could decrease the default value 1.0 of RangeMultiplier setting to 0.1 in the RT Option window in the KSC scene, to achieve the 10 times the base omni range. But this setting change would affects all dish and omni ranges, bringing down to 100 times the base dish range. Will this change in the base dish range be unacceptable to you?

Edit: Yamori got a better idea - exposing both limits on the base-range boosts to the default or player setting cfg to be configurable. I estimate it is relatively trivial if implemented correctly.

Edited March 16, 2017 by TaxiService

[kerrigan778]

7 hours ago, TaxiService said:

Hi,

I am not sure if I understand your intention correctly. You would like to cut down from the default 100 times to 3-10 times the base omni range, right? I found this entry in the online RT manual, in which you could decrease the default value 1.0 of RangeMultiplier setting to 0.1 in the RT Option window in the KSC scene, to achieve the 10 times the base omni range. But this setting change would affects all dish and omni ranges, bringing down to 100 times the base dish range. Will this change in the base dish range be unacceptable to you?

Edit: Yamori got a better idea - exposing both limits on the base-range boosts to the default or player setting cfg to be configurable. I estimate it is relatively trivial if implemented correctly.

I don't mind cutting both but the rangemultiplier config as I understand it will also reduce all antenna ranges not just the interaction between weak antennas and powerful antennas which is a problem as you need the very powerful antennas to be able to still work with each other. As you said though exposing both limits in a config file would be the perfect solution for me to fine tune my gameplay. For now I got the JX2Antenna from Snark and set the rangemultiplier to .8 on a 3.2x scale Galileo system so that two of those antennas can communicate between Home and the outermost planets but there's still some challenge in creating a network within the Gael system. Even now though I have a simple low tech relay and it's enough that a DP-10 in low orbit can communicate with Geosynchronous orbit if the positions are close to ideal which in my opinion is not ideal for gameplay. 

Again, my understanding being that if I simply decreased the RangeMultiplier further from 0.8 then I would no longer be able to communicate remotely with the outermost planets without intermediary relays even with 2.5 meter antennas on both sides and line of sight.

 

TL;DR Currently it feels like root antenna range calculation means that having a proper interplanetary comm relay in orbit of a planet makes communication throughout the entire planetary system completely trivial rather than varying degrees of easier, depending on how advanced your relay is.

 

 

Hopefully that explains what I'm looking for or asking, thanks for listening and making great mods.

Edited March 16, 2017 by kerrigan778
Phrasing

[crapstar]

I want to clarify that I am not demanding a release. How many more months do you guys think RT2 might take. Again not trying to hold anyone to it. Thanks

Edited March 16, 2017 by crapstar
typo

[Kenny Kerman]

(quiet strange I can remotely pilot a unmanned probe but can't ask it to deploy an antenna... Is there an option like "view only if no connection" or event "no connection no view"--> only automatized probes would work then, which is fully coherent with "smarts parts" and some generalizd AG system & mission room in the track station full of cathodic green-on-black 320x200 logging screens... ).

Edited March 17, 2017 by Kenny Kerman

[FutureLeak]

Howdy, I could of sworn that KSP included some sort of "basic Remote-tech" am I mistaken?

[Varsi]

41 minutes ago, FutureLeak said:

Howdy, I could of sworn that KSP included some sort of "basic Remote-tech" am I mistaken?

Stock KSP does have relay antennae and link cutting due to planets in the way and such now. Differences have been discussed earlier in this thread.

[TaxiService]

15 hours ago, kerrigan778 said:

-snap-

Yup, I understand this. I am opening up both limits on max ranges of omni and dish antennas to be customized in either default or player setting cfg.

 

15 hours ago, crapstar said:

I want to clarify that I am not demanding a release. How many more months do you guys think RT2 might take. Again not trying to hold anyone to it. Thanks

You are not going to like this. Our rough estimation for the first pre-release RT 2.x is in early Q3 2017 because we are essentially writing new non-infrastructure features. RT 2.x already has the basic infrastructure up and running (missing  things are dish pointing and FlightComputer). But cheer up because we are still putting small improvements and bug fixes into RT 1.x, which is still cooperating with other third-party mods like Real Solar System mod.

 

4 hours ago, Kenny Kerman said:

(quiet strange I can remotely pilot a unmanned probe but can't ask it to deploy an antenna... Is there an option like "view only if no connection" or event "no connection no view"--> only automatized probes would work then, which is fully coherent with "smarts parts" and some generalizd AG system & mission room in the track station full of cathodic green-on-black 320x200 logging screens... ).

I am not sure if I understand your post correctly. You are unable to activate an antenna on your unmanned probe that you can remotely control? You should be able to activate the antenna when you have remote control of the probe. If no remote control is on the probe, you can't even right-click probe parts because most of the part-action menu would be just hidden.

 

4 hours ago, FutureLeak said:

Howdy, I could of sworn that KSP included some sort of "basic Remote-tech" am I mistaken?

Yup, as Varsi pointed out, here's the post on difference between KSP's CommNet and RemoteTech. TLDR: CommNet has no signal delay, super-easy connection rules and no automation of next steps.

[antonioltg]

It is possible to select a target in the VAB for multiple antennas at the same time?
So i can send like a million little satellite in one launch without having to select the target on each one but just turn them on with the action groups

[Calvin_Maclure]

I found out not too long ago that the OPM mod tweaks the antenna's power. Does this affect RT in any way or does RT override something like that?

Cheers,

[TaxiService]

19 hours ago, antonioltg said:

It is possible to select a target in the VAB for multiple antennas at the same time?
So i can send like a million little satellite in one launch without having to select the target on each one but just turn them on with the action groups

Do you mean activating and selecting each (dish) antenna's target in the VAB prior to the launch? It is not currently possible but I wonder how easy it is to add the target button to the VAB/SPH editor.

 

18 hours ago, Calvin_Maclure said:

I found out not too long ago that the OPM mod tweaks the antenna's power. Does this affect RT in any way or does RT override something like that?

Cheers,

I think the OPM overrides RT's antenna powers when the OPM is installed along with RT. You can undo OPM's RT tweaks by editting its cfg - OPM_RemoteTech.cfg. But I see it only affects the part RTGigaDish1 (the giant orange dish)

[Mikeloeven]

Feature Request: Omni to Dish Connections and automatic signal acquisition / Re-targeting of Dish Antennas

There are two relativity large issues I keep running into when working with Remote tech. Both of which seem to be most prevalent dealing with connections between KSO relays and LKO craft. The first issue is that Omnidirectional Antennas do not connect to dish antennas. If a dish antenna on a KSO satellite is pointed at Kerbin and a craft with an omni-directional antenna is within that cone and the relay is within transmit range of the craft there is no reason why it cannot link with the relay network.

The second issue is also a problem with craft in LKO but also causes problems elsewhere. That is that lack of a spacecraft or probe's ability to search for signals and automatically re-target an antenna. while a probe outside kerbin's SOE is easier to target craft that are in LKO can only target a specific relay satellite with no ability to hop between relays when it passes out of range. I would assume most probes and satellites have mechanisms available to dynamically re-target their antennas I would imagine the only need for manually targeted antennas would be static connections between relays and setting up beams orientated at a specific target in the solar system.

Essentially the mod needs a method of allowing ships and probes to perform automatic signal acquisition so that their dish's can be set to automatically search for and target the strongest signal they can find with the ability to hop between relays as needed. The main problem with the mod in it's current state is the excessive amount of micromanagement.

Edited March 23, 2017 by Mikeloeven

[Kenny Kerman]

https://github.com/RemoteTechnologiesGroup/RemoteTech/issues/107

I guess some modding will do...?

Or with ?

 

Edited March 23, 2017 by Kenny Kerman

[Mikeloeven]

For the most part targeting things outside of kerbins SOE is easier than keeping a low orbit ship connected to a relay say. The fact that omnis dont seem to properly connect to dishes tho seems to be the biggest problem but auto hopping between relays for a dish would definitely help

Edited March 23, 2017 by Mikeloeven

[Calvin_Maclure]

On 3/22/2017 at 9:31 AM, TaxiService said:

Do you mean activating and selecting each (dish) antenna's target in the VAB prior to the launch? It is not currently possible but I wonder how easy it is to add the target button to the VAB/SPH editor.

 

I think the OPM overrides RT's antenna powers when the OPM is installed along with RT. You can undo OPM's RT tweaks by editting its cfg - OPM_RemoteTech.cfg. But I see it only affects the part RTGigaDish1 (the giant orange dish)

@tomek.piotrowski, hey, I was just wondering if you could comment on this. 

Thanks!

[Kenny Kerman]

(Is there a way to put a Dontstayputnik in orbit and hear it pass and make bips in a ground radio...? )

Edited March 24, 2017 by Kenny Kerman

[Varsi]

1 hour ago, Kenny Kerman said:

(Is there a way to put a Stayputnik in orbit and hear it pass and make bips in a ground radio...? )

This would have been a great easter egg.

[Kenny Kerman]

Just now, Varsi said:

This would have been a great easter egg.

Maybe a "sound radio receiver" part could do?

[TaxiService]

23 hours ago, Mikeloeven said:

Feature Request: Omni to Dish Connections and automatic signal acquisition / Re-targeting of Dish Antennas

There are two relativity large issues I keep running into when working with Remote tech. Both of which seem to be most prevalent dealing with connections between KSO relays and LKO craft. The first issue is that Omnidirectional Antennas do not connect to dish antennas. If a dish antenna on a KSO satellite is pointed at Kerbin and a craft with an omni-directional antenna is within that cone and the relay is within transmit range of the craft there is no reason why it cannot link with the relay network.

The second issue is also a problem with craft in LKO but also causes problems elsewhere. That is that lack of a spacecraft or probe's ability to search for signals and automatically re-target an antenna. while a probe outside kerbin's SOE is easier to target craft that are in LKO can only target a specific relay satellite with no ability to hop between relays when it passes out of range. I would assume most probes and satellites have mechanisms available to dynamically re-target their antennas I would imagine the only need for manually targeted antennas would be static connections between relays and setting up beams orientated at a specific target in the solar system.

Essentially the mod needs a method of allowing ships and probes to perform automatic signal acquisition so that their dish's can be set to automatically search for and target the strongest signal they can find with the ability to hop between relays as needed. The main problem with the mod in it's current state is the excessive amount of micromanagement.

Yup, as Kenny Kerman pointed out the RT issue #107, this auto-targeting mechanism has a large potential impact on gameplay and is debated for quite long time (as seen in the comments there). Although it is not settled for RT 1.x, the proposed extension for RT 2.x on this auto-targeting is on the feature list.

For the omni-dish distinction , I checked the RT 1.x codebase and found that the separation of omni and dish (AbstractRangeModel.cs) is deeply embedded. Adding a toggle option of this distinction to RT 1.x would require a considerable work, something we are unwilling to invest in while developing RT 2.x features at the same feature. But based on our preliminary discussion of RT 2.x antenna system, it will be easier to keep the omni-dish distinction and other RT1.x rules as a gameplay choice in RT 2.x.

 

22 hours ago, Calvin_Maclure said:

hey, I was just wondering if you could comment on this. 

Thanks!

Few of us in the RT team are discussing on this implementation of the targeting in VAB/SPH editors currently. We discover that many of information, such as vessels, required for targeting is empty in the editor because, well, the editor isn't flight. We are working out the cost of writing saving/cache of such data for the editor.

[Calvin_Maclure]

1 hour ago, TaxiService said:

Yup, as Kenny Kerman pointed out the RT issue #107, this auto-targeting mechanism has a large potential impact on gameplay and is debated for quite long time (as seen in the comments there). Although it is not settled for RT 1.x, the proposed extension for RT 2.x on this auto-targeting is on the feature list.

For the omni-dish distinction , I checked the RT 1.x codebase and found that the separation of omni and dish (AbstractRangeModel.cs) is deeply embedded. Adding a toggle option of this distinction to RT 1.x would require a considerable work, something we are unwilling to invest in while developing RT 2.x features at the same feature. But based on our preliminary discussion of RT 2.x antenna system, it will be easier to keep the omni-dish distinction and other RT1.x rules as a gameplay choice in RT 2.x.

 

Few of us in the RT team are discussing on this implementation of the targeting in VAB/SPH editors currently. We discover that many of information, such as vessels, required for targeting is empty in the editor because, well, the editor isn't flight. We are working out the cost of writing saving/cache of such data for the editor.

Oops... I believe I may have been misunderstood. I was actually referring to OP'M's boosting of the CommNet system and whether or not RemoteTech superseded that or not. 

[Mikeloeven]

Is there an early alpha available of any RT 2.X builds or is it still in the planning phase?

[TaxiService]

14 hours ago, Calvin_Maclure said:

Oops... I believe I may have been misunderstood. I was actually referring to OP'M's boosting of the CommNet system and whether or not RemoteTech superseded that or not. 

Oh ok. RT 1.x, which OPM provides its own RT patch for, disables CommNet in place of its own network. OPM's RT patch supersedes the RT aka boosting RT's network system.

 

8 hours ago, Mikeloeven said:

Is there an early alpha available of any RT 2.X builds or is it still in the planning phase?

Sorry, we only have internal develop builds for ourselves only so there is no alpha build for public.

[Kenny Kerman]

You could shunt a part of the problem for now (while not being perfect, it would be beter) by making ground omnidirectionnal antennas getting signal from directionnals if they "see" any say 20° (or a value depending of the antenna) above horizon. Would be realistic enough for ground antennas...? That opens an abuse (One directionnal antenna can become bidirectionnal...) but realism comes from the player too. You could add attenuation for omnis when they are not sure they are in a directionnal cone.

I mean, no need for "absolute realism or nothing". KSP computes in double instead of float, which is already physically irrealist. And what I want for an omnidirectionnal antenna is that it works quiet alone even if *sometimes* it don't get a signal when it should... After all, all these things are hardly 100% reliable IRL... I want to automatically launch and deploy swarms of small probes with omnis... And a Spoutnik bipbiping would just be natural in this game. With or without directionnal aerials...

So: a low-orbit omni is receivable from ground. Why not a directionnal one, event pointed outwards? I guess the original spoutnik was emitting towards ground less powerfully than an omnidirectionnal antenna (at the same alt) pointing outwards So you could have a rule like "if a directionnal is within a xxx km distance, it's an attenuated omni". And this open path for amplificators and others sound-radio-receivers mods One day, a Walt Dangerfield Kerman !

 

Edited March 25, 2017 by Kenny Kerman

[Mikeloeven]

I mean it's hard enough maintaining a stable connection when my kerbals keep using the transmitter dishes to microwave their snacks and cause temporary blackouts

Edited March 25, 2017 by Mikeloeven