Landing gear can't wait for 1.2, needs bandaid.

[foamyesque]

I dunno what that is, but it sure as heck ain't "compact".

[Alshain]

6 hours ago, foamyesque said:

 

@Alshain

It's your tilted wings. They're causing your wheels to be forward of your CoP, and, on your runway cruise, they're applying pressure to your nose gear and removing it from your rear. That (plus the irritating issue of tailfins biasing to one side) is why you're turning left. Some minor changes will effectively eliminate it.

 

That's a good looking plane you have there.  Not even close to my plane, so basically you have designed an entirely new plane and called it the fix to my plane which works fine when the wheels aren't bugged.  There is certainly nothing wrong with the wings on my plane, altering them doesn't actually change the fact that it veers off the runway.  I know this because I did that about 2 months ago.

7 hours ago, foamyesque said:

TL;DR: It's a design issue in your case.

Nope. Afraid not.  It's a bug in the wheels in my case.

[Wraith977]

4 hours ago, Bandus said:

So I built a new plane trying to incorporate the suggestions above. On the plus side, it doesn't veer left off the runway, so that's something. 

However, after about 10 seconds of acceleration down the runway it wobbles back and forth until a wing strike occurs. I feel like if I put the landing gear further out to fix it, they'll be too near the control surfaces again, right?

I am playing in career mode so other types of wheels nor structural fuselages are not available to me yet. 

Here is the craft file if anyone is interested: https://www.dropbox.com/s/2wkkx3fkc61sz2d/Wobble.craft?dl=0. I appreciate it! 

 

There are two problems that I see immediately.

1- The center of lift is too far back, to fix this I just added a pair of basic fins to the nose of the craft and angled them to move the center of lift to be much closer to the center of mass. This takes strain off of the front wheel and helps with control issues in flight (the nose dipping down or up).

2- The front wheel is sitting slightly higher than the two rear wheels, this makes the craft sit at a forward incline on the runway and essentially means you're using your jets to power the front wheel down into the runway. This causes strain on the front wheel as it's getting more friction than it should, to fix this I simply raised the back wheels a bit so the craft sat level or even at a slight backwards incline on the runway.

Spoiler

As for the wheel problems in general I won't deny that people are having problems with the new physics, I will say that I've never had any issues besides extremely light rovers sliding too much, with aircraft the problem seems easily avoided by designing craft in a certain way. If it helps I've included an image of one of my craft that represents almost all my working craft in terms of COL to COM relation, wheel placement, wing size in relation to the body and control surfaces. I recognise that this is an atmospheric craft and might not apply to SSTOs and such.

Spoiler

 

[klesh]

10 hours ago, Alshain said:

Why?

It might dodge the problem with the wheels and let you play. 

[Alshain]

Just now, klesh said:

It might dodge the problem with the wheels and let you play. 

I seriously doubt it.  If anything with the way the wheel colliders in 1.1 are, it would make matters worse.

Guys, I'm not looking to redesign this plane for 1.1, I don't even have 1.1 on my computer anymore.  The plane works fine.... in 1.0.5 where the wheels aren't bugged.  Hopefully in 1.2 it will work again once they fix the issues.  The fact is, at least on my machine (and many other players machines, including consoles), any plane I fly in 1.1 slams off the runway.  It's not a construction issue.  I promise you if I tried to fly that new plane that foamyesque designed it would still drive off the runway.  This is not new, it's all been done, you guys are late to the party.

[qromodynmc]

1 minute ago, Alshain said:

I seriously doubt it.  If anything with the way the wheel colliders in 1.1 are, it would make matters worse.

Guys, I'm not looking to redesign this plane for 1.1, I don't even have 1.1 on my computer anymore.  The plane works fine.... in 1.0.5 where the wheels aren't bugged.  Hopefully in 1.2 it will work again once they fix the issues.  The fact is, at least on my machine (and many other players machines, including consoles), any plane I fly in 1.1 slams off the runway.  It's not a construction issue.  I promise you if I tried to fly that new plane that foamyesque designed it would still drive off the runway.  This is not new, it's all been done, you guys are late to the party.

To be honest, in 1.0.5 wheels were simple static objects that didnt care about force or mass. They are not acting properly in 1.1.3 either. We need to find middle way of this. (still i dont think they are useless, Im still making lot of planes every day)

[Wraith977]

12 minutes ago, Alshain said:

That's a good looking plane you have there.  Not even close to my plane, so basically you have designed an entirely new plane and called it the fix to my plane which works fine when the wheels aren't bugged.  There is certainly nothing wrong with the wings on my plane, altering them doesn't actually change the fact that it veers off the runway.  I know this because I did that about 2 months ago.

Nope. Afraid not.  It's a bug in the wheels in my case.

Actually it looks like he did the sensible things needed to fix your problem, all that I can see that he changed is the angle of the back wings, the tail and the position of the solar panels... Look at this

The red arrows show how having the COL too far behind the COM forces the front wheel into the ground, as has already been said this causes stress on the front wheel leading to your problem. By moving the COL forward the force acting downwards on the front wheel is reduced, helping to solve your problem.

The purple triangle beneath the craft shows your current surface area with the ground, the green triangle shows the surface area you would have if you flipped the front wheel around. A larger surface area in general means a more stable craft, it's a small help but it's still a help.

[Alshain]

4 minutes ago, Wraith977 said:

Actually it looks like he did the sensible things needed to fix your problem, all that I can see that he changed is the angle of the back wings, the tail and the position of the solar panels... Look at this

He didn't just rotate the wings (something that does not fix the problem anyway).  He completely replaced the wings and came up with a new design, which is fine, but I design my own planes.  I'm pretty good at it, and his plane wouldn't drive straight on my machine anyway.  Speaking of which, having the Center of Lift in front of the Center of Mass is not a great idea.  I don't know where you learned that but it's just wrong.  I don't think his plane was that way either or it wouldn't have flown, but that has little to do with the landing gear.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Alshain

[klesh]

Fair enough.  I'm one of those who don't have any problems at all, and all my front gears are flipped.  Maybe its a coincidence, maybe not.   If you would like to post the craft file for that ship of yours, I would be happy to take a look.   If it works fine for me, then clearly there would be something weird going with the game.  If you're more inclined to just wait for 1.2, then thats your perrogative.

 

[Alshain]

6 minutes ago, qromodynmc said:

To be honest, in 1.0.5 wheels were simple static objects that didnt care about force or mass. They are not acting properly in 1.1.3 either. We need to find middle way of this. (still i dont think they are useless, Im still making lot of planes every day)

I don't think 1.0.5 wheels are perfect by any means, just better than 1.1

[qromodynmc]

Just now, Alshain said:

I don't think 1.0.5 wheels are perfect by any means, just better than 1.1

Btw, i wonder why you angled that wing? it'd only cause to drag.

[Alshain]

4 minutes ago, qromodynmc said:

Btw, i wonder why you angled that wing? it'd only cause to drag.

It increases lift, and helps stable flight on that design so it flies level with no hands on the stick.  Not all my planes have angled wings like that, but they do all run off the runway in 1.1.  That's how I know that won't fix the problem.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Alshain

[Wraith977]

2 minutes ago, Alshain said:

Speaking of which, having the Center of Lift in front of the Center of Mass is not a great idea.  I don't know where you learned that but it's just wrong.

Never put the COL in front of the COM I know, just don't put it too far behind either, that seems to cause the majority of problems with peoples aircraft. Everyone just hears "put the COL behind the COM and you can't go wrong!" but you can.... Look at the craft in the second spoiler of my first post on this page, you'll see. Also I can see now that he did replace the wing, It could still be fixed by shifting it's placement though.

 

3 minutes ago, qromodynmc said:

Btw, i wonder why you angled that wing? it'd only cause to drag.

Which creates more lift which forces the COL towards the angled wing, I often angle my front canards to force the COL forwards if it's too far back.

[qromodynmc]

I know it increases lift but fixed angled wing seems more like a loss to me, I'd rather to use flaps but that's just me

[Alshain]

2 minutes ago, Wraith977 said:

Never put the COL in front of the COM I know, just don't put it too far behind either, that seems to cause the majority of problems with peoples aircraft. Everyone just hears "put the COL behind the COM and you can't go wrong!" but you can.... Look at the craft in the second spoiler of my first post on this page, you'll see. Also I can see now that he did replace the wing, It could still be fixed by shifting it's placement though.

What I have is not too far behind.  It depends on what you are building.  Close to the center of mass makes it very maneuverable, which is great for a fighter jet, but for and SSTO that goes from the runway to orbit doesn't need a lot of turning capability.  Having the CoM a little further back makes the craft less maneuverable, but more stable, which is what I prefer on an SSTO.

[klesh]

15 minutes ago, Wraith977 said:

 

 

 

Reversed front gear would put it right under that arrow in this instance.  

[Alshain]

3 minutes ago, qromodynmc said:

I know it increases lift but fixed angled wing seems more like a loss to me, I'd rather to use flaps but that's just me

It has flaps too, but for some reason in KSP they actually create more drag and significantly less lift.  That and the fact that stock flaps are 2 position, which is annoying really.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Alshain

[foamyesque]

16 minutes ago, Alshain said:

He didn't just rotate the wings (something that does not fix the problem anyway).  He completely replaced the wings and came up with a new design, which is fine, but I design my own planes.  I'm pretty good at it, and his plane wouldn't drive straight on my machine anyway.  Speaking of which, having the Center of Lift in front of the Center of Mass is not a great idea.  I don't know where you learned that but it's just wrong.  I don't think his plane was that way either or it wouldn't have flown, but that has little to do with the landing gear.

Your design is actually not very good. It has redundant control surfaces, a bad wing layout, bad gear layout, and overly draggy rear wings. I have the same tankage and engine you used, and I have the same kind of landing gear, and I can duplicate your problem if I build your plane exactly, because your plane's design is the problem.

All you have to do to fix it is move your rear gear forward to your CoM and bring your CoL up to it. I did so by straightening the wings, pulling the canards forward for better control authority, and cutting the extra canards you have on your tailfin (because you resorted to "more fins" instead of balancing things well, I guess? I can't see the point of it otherwise; it's just useless extra mass).

 

 

Edited July 17, 2016 by foamyesque

[qromodynmc]

1 minute ago, Alshain said:

It has flaps too, but for some reason in KSP they actually create more drag and significantly less lift.

Yeah i have serious doubts about ksp flap system.

[Alshain]

2 minutes ago, foamyesque said:

Your design is actually not very good.

ROFL.  Ok, whatever.  I'm done listening to you now, if you aren't listening to me, why should I?  The plane works fine.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Alshain

[foamyesque]

8 minutes ago, Alshain said:

ROFL.  Ok, whatever.  I'm done listening to you now, if you aren't listening to me, why should I?  The plane works fine.

I know you think so, but, like, you're also the one saying it doesn't work, so?...

 

You've got canards at the midpoint of your plane. That doesn't seem odd to you? You're using a wide wingspan on a hypersonic plane, you've got redundant fins, your takeoff is wrecked by your CoL/gear placement problems...

 

*shrug*

 

I guess you can keep on blaming the wheels instead of learning how to build.

Edited July 17, 2016 by foamyesque

[qromodynmc]

C'mon guys, calm.

[foamyesque]

9 minutes ago, qromodynmc said:

C'mon guys, calm.

 

Sorry, I'm just a little choked that I went to the time and trouble to explain what his problem was, how to fix it, and showed him a design (that is the same as his bar balancing of wings and gear) that works, complete with flight log, and got blown off with "well you're wrong".

Edited July 17, 2016 by foamyesque

[Wraith977]

On a still wheel related side note.... has anyone else noticed this?

When wheels are retracted and lights are on they still shine... through the gear enclosure and the rest of the plane... (The image in one of my jets flying upside down with gears up and lights on to show the problem.)

[Alshain]

1 hour ago, Wraith977 said:

On a still wheel related side note.... has anyone else noticed this?

When wheels are retracted and lights are on they still shine... through the gear enclosure and the rest of the plane... (The image in one of my jets flying upside down with gears up and lights on to show the problem.)

Lighting issue like that have been around for a long time.  It's something to do with the light source being on an animated part.

 

1 hour ago, qromodynmc said:

C'mon guys, calm.

Sorry, it just gets a bit irritating when people come in and tell you your whole plane design for a plane that flies just fine is wrong when the only issue is a well documented bug with the wheels, and the supposed better design won't work anyway.  It's over now though, I've got him ignored.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Alshain