Landing gear can't wait for 1.2, needs bandaid.

[qromodynmc]

It's kinda weird but 1.1.3 made my planes little wobbly, they are really heavy but i built them in 1.1.2, they were fine. Still it can be fixed, just needs bigger wheels.

[The_Rocketeer]

1 hour ago, Majorjim said:

Face-palm..

 It is well documented and acknowledged by the devs man. If you have those issues it is due to the bugged and broken wheels/legs.

I am amazed you could think I was that stupid. I'll have to try to use more long words or something.

I am not denying the issue of dodgy landing gears exists, what I'm denying is that there is enough evidence to say whether you can or can not avoid it by engineering a solution. One person who thinks they've avoided it by engineering could be wrong because they just got lucky or their system was different or some other bug-cause was lacking compared to someone else who thinks it's unavoidable because everything they've tried has failed, when actually they just haven't tried the right thing yet.

In other words, there's no point in arguing whether you can or can't engineer out the issue because there are far too many variables to be certain.

[Alshain]

5 hours ago, foamyesque said:

It isn't luck. There's consistent rules to how landing gear behave; that's why I want screenshots.

Screenshots of what? I have hundreds of screenshots in my signature.

[foamyesque]

Just now, Alshain said:

Screenshots of what? I have hundreds of screenshots in my signature.

Of his plane that's having the issue. I thought that was obvious?

[Alshain]

14 minutes ago, foamyesque said:

Of his plane that's having the issue. I thought that was obvious?

I don't have his plane, but I have plenty of mine that don't work.  Bear in mind we have been discussing this issue for months now, plenty of screenshots, videos, and craft files have been passed back and forth.   Plenty of people have tried to correct the designs through construction.   You are coming in and the tail end of this discussion now, the conclusions have all been made and devs have acknowledged.  I promise you the people that have witnessed this problem, including myself, are not ignorant of plane design.

[foamyesque]

So link me, then. I have never had a plane with landing gear issues I've not been able to correct, going back to the very first landing gear C7 modded in.

Edited July 17, 2016 by foamyesque

[Alshain]

2 hours ago, foamyesque said:

So link me, then. I have never had a plane with landing gear issues I've not been able to correct, going back to the very first landing gear C7 modded in.

This is the one you see in my signature there.  It runs off the left side of the runway.  Works great in 1.0.5 though.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Alshain

[klesh]

Turn your front landing gear around.

[Alshain]

3 minutes ago, klesh said:

Turn your front landing gear around.

Why?

[Bandus]

For what it's worth, I'm having the exact same issue that Alshain has indicated has been acknowledged by the devs. A very basic plane design veers off the runway the moment I get to about 30 m/s. Even if the devs had not acknowledged it yet, I'd argue that it cannot be intended behavior. 

[Mike Mars]

1 hour ago, klesh said:

Turn your front landing gear around.

The landing gear appears fine.

But I think your tail fin is too small.  I have found that this causes stability issues during takeoff run.

MM

[foamyesque]

@Mike Mars

The tailfin is, if anything, too large.

 

@Alshain

It's your tilted wings. They're causing your wheels to be forward of your CoP, and, on your runway cruise, they're applying pressure to your nose gear and removing it from your rear. That (plus the irritating issue of tailfins biasing to one side) is why you're turning left. Some minor changes will effectively eliminate it.

 

Simple redesign, runway tests, and flight & landing:

 

Design:

 

Runway test, no control whatsoever:

 

So with absolutely no control input whatsoever the thing drives arrow straight until somewhere between 140 and 150m/s, at which point the thing is no longer so much driving as it is flying really low down.

 

Turning on SAS, and doing nothing else:

Ruler straight. Gear explodes at the end of the runway when I hit the skijump at 200m/s+ though :v.

 

Flight:

 

Liftoff:

Climb angle:

Mode switch:

MECO:

Circularization:

Deorbit:

Safe-ing the panels:

Cross-range:

(had to rebalance my fuel partway through -- CoM had shifted too far forward during flight for the canard to give me enough angle of attack otherwise. Cockpit got up to 95% of its max skin temperature before I did it :v)

Safely through and gliding over land:

Coming in for landing:

Touchdown:

All stop:

 

If there's a handy way to trade .craft files, I'll even give it to you.

 

 

TL;DR: It's a design issue in your case.

 

1 hour ago, Bandus said:

For what it's worth, I'm having the exact same issue that Alshain has indicated has been acknowledged by the devs. A very basic plane design veers off the runway the moment I get to about 30 m/s. Even if the devs had not acknowledged it yet, I'd argue that it cannot be intended behavior. 

 

Misaligned gear or unanticipated aerodynamic loading cause a lot of the landing gear issues, in my experience. Fire up a screenshot or two.

[Bandus]

1 hour ago, foamyesque said:

Misaligned gear or unanticipated aerodynamic loading cause a lot of the landing gear issues, in my experience. Fire up a screenshot or two.

 

Screenshots:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I realize it isn't pretty plane, but I would expect that it'd be able to get a bit further than it does. Within 3-5 seconds of me pressing space to fire up the engines it's veering hard left, off the runway with no input control from me to cause it.. The tail fin is set so all controls are inactive.

Edited July 17, 2016 by Bandus

[Superfluous J]

13 minutes ago, Bandus said:

I realize it isn't pretty plane, but I would expect that it'd be able to get a bit further than it does. Within 3-5 seconds of me pressing space to fire up the engines it's veering hard left, off the runway with no input control from me to cause it.. The tail fin is set so all controls are inactive.

I cannot for the life of me figure out what wing you're using there. Could I get a top view?

Without yet making the plane, my first 2 thoughts is that your back gear is too far back, and your COT is off-line with your COM.

[qromodynmc]

17 minutes ago, Bandus said:

 

Screenshots:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I realize it isn't pretty plane, but I would expect that it'd be able to get a bit further than it does. Within 3-5 seconds of me pressing space to fire up the engines it's veering hard left, off the runway with no input control from me to cause it.. The tail fin is set so all controls are inactive.

Add a canard, currently control surfaces are way too near to landing gears, putting all the pressure over them.

[Bandus]

I will certainly try these things, however, would these things potentially cause the aircraft to veer left off the runway after 3-5 seconds of the engine being turned on?

[Superfluous J]

7 minutes ago, Bandus said:

I will certainly try these things, however, would these things potentially cause the aircraft to veer left off the runway after 3-5 seconds of the engine being turned on?

Engines producing torque over the COM lift the back legs and push down on the front ones, so yes moving the engines so they don't do that will help.

I'm not great with planes but I was able to get yours (or a reasonable facsimile of it) up to about 60 m/s before it flipped out and exploded on me. I suspect more wing (and less fuel. I was surprised when I saw the center fuel tank was not a structural fuselage) would help but I hate the Junos so much I stopped playing with the plane

In my book, anything less than a Panther isn't worth flying with but as I said, I'm not great with planes

[qromodynmc]

Veering probably caused by those fixed wheels, they are extra sensitive to everything.

[Bandus]

So I built a new plane trying to incorporate the suggestions above. On the plus side, it doesn't veer left off the runway, so that's something. 

However, after about 10 seconds of acceleration down the runway it wobbles back and forth until a wing strike occurs. I feel like if I put the landing gear further out to fix it, they'll be too near the control surfaces again, right?

I am playing in career mode so other types of wheels nor structural fuselages are not available to me yet. 

Here is the craft file if anyone is interested: https://www.dropbox.com/s/2wkkx3fkc61sz2d/Wobble.craft?dl=0. I appreciate it! 

 

[qromodynmc]

31 minutes ago, Bandus said:

So I built a new plane trying to incorporate the suggestions above. On the plus side, it doesn't veer left off the runway, so that's something. 

However, after about 10 seconds of acceleration down the runway it wobbles back and forth until a wing strike occurs. I feel like if I put the landing gear further out to fix it, they'll be too near the control surfaces again, right?

I am playing in career mode so other types of wheels nor structural fuselages are not available to me yet. 

Here is the craft file if anyone is interested: https://www.dropbox.com/s/2wkkx3fkc61sz2d/Wobble.craft?dl=0. I appreciate it! 

 

I'll check it out.

Look, in your original craft control surface is just above wheel, do you know what that means? whole pressure is going over  wheel, and those wheels are really really sensitive to mass. Here is a quick fix, just add canard or control surface, this will make your craft extremely stable and easy to use;

I moved ailerons to ends, just for cosmetic, i cant stand to aileron just in the middle of wing

Also, assing roles to control surfaces; Canard is for pitch, aileron is for roll.

Edited July 17, 2016 by qromodynmc

[pandaman]

It seems to me there is a mix of issues here.

Due to the new version of Unity, wheels now work differently (more realistically in many ways) and have some bugs/issues that simply cannot be fixed properly until a Unity upgrade.  So there is no choice, but to wait.

Wheels now do 'more stuff' like having suspension and traction settings/tweaks which players are taking some time to get used to.

Wheels now have a different physics model, taking into account the weight they carry etc.  This is causing problems where designs that worked fine before now sometimes don't, and it can be difficult to spot how to adjust the design to compensate.

Many of the problems players are having can be addressed by being aware of the way wheels work now and changing design practices and operating parameters to take these new 'rules' into account.  

 Eg...

Smaller wheels can carry less weight.

Landing at a low vertical velocity is much more critical than before

And a major one (I think) is that aerodynamic forces, especially on take off, are causing wheel loading to move around and parts that wheels are attached to to flex which then causes them to move out of alignment, which causes rapid changes of direction. 

ALL of these examples can be addressed largely by design and operational considerations,  but it can be very difficult to pinpoint what design issue is at the root of a particular problem with any given vessel.

[jackdown]

I can get around whoopy choopy takeoffs,so planes are ok for me. Bbut.. that wheel blocked : YES status is very frustrating. One cant build compact trucks that fits cargo bay, as u need lot of space between wheels and other parts

[qromodynmc]

20 minutes ago, jackdown said:

I can get around whoopy choopy takeoffs,so planes are ok for me. Bbut.. that wheel blocked : YES status is very frustrating. One cant build compact trucks that fits cargo bay, as u need lot of space between wheels and other parts

Yeah that's really annoying.

[foamyesque]

43 minutes ago, jackdown said:

I can get around whoopy choopy takeoffs,so planes are ok for me. Bbut.. that wheel blocked : YES status is very frustrating. One cant build compact trucks that fits cargo bay, as u need lot of space between wheels and other parts

 

Oh yeah?

 

4 Kerbals, every science producing part except the material bay, fits in Mk3 bays, stable, and fast.

 

I will admit that it was a hassle to design it and required a lot of fiddling, but it's possible.

[jackdown]

Yes, its possible, but 100TH test drive slowly losing fun factor

 

Edited July 17, 2016 by jackdown