That's enough of that

[Kerbart]

11 hours ago, steve_v said:

Compare and contrast a recent "big name" release I'm thinking of: A serious (CTD) bug is discovered after launch, it only affects a very small number of players but it's game-breaking.
Response: Personal contact from the dev team requesting logs and saves, regular updates posted, and the very next patch fixes the issue... All within 2 weeks of first-report.

On the other hand, I'm experiencing bugs in commercial software that I've paid 4 digits for. Bugs that, by KSP forum standards, “break the software” (*cough*). And that were listed in said software’s userforum over five years and many releases ago. 

Or hardware that stopped working after five minutes. Really stopped working. That's true “broken,” not the “the game is completely broken because I can't taxi my plane at 150 m/s through rough terrain without the wheels exploding” kind of “totally broken”. The vendor’s “solution” was a full reinstall of Windows,which I passed on. Eventually I found out that a simple change in energy savings settings in the driver would solve the problem.

There are certainly issues with the way Squad is presenting their 0.27 version (as 1.1) to the public. At the same time, they are working very hard to fight the bugs that are under their control. What happens inside Unity, or when you've installed dozens of mods, is not. Expecting that a random crash in the VAB (that not too many players are experiencing) within two weeks, without providing any info on what triggers the crash, is optimistic to the point where it would be beneficial to manage one's expectations.

[ag3nt108]

On 6/6/2016 at 8:08 AM, Columbia said:

On 6/6/2016 at 0:53 AM, ag3nt108 said:

another Doom post, how original.

Oh look, another short complaint post about the complaint. How original.

Yes, haven't you noticed doom posts are becoming daily.  Usually the poster starts with something like this..

"Today KSP crashed a billion times in 4 hours, I quit this <junk> stuff squad KKTHNXBB"  

 

Ill admit I poke fun at these posters, but really, do you think the posts are at all constructive and do we need a new one every day?  Maybe a mod can sticky a thread for doom posts?

Edited June 7, 2016 by Red Iron Crown
typo not a typo after all - be quiet is prohibited! <So is evading the filter, don't do that.>

[SorryDave]

Bye SpacedCowboy

i hope you find your way back to the game someday. 

Also, for the record: There are no cows in space.

[MaxPeck]

1 hour ago, ag3nt108 said:

Yes, haven't you noticed doom posts are becoming daily.

Something, perhaps, could be gleaned from this fact.  Like an unhappy customer base, perhaps?

The hardest part of playing KSP anymore isn't learning orbital mechanics or anything silly like that, it's learning to manage expectations.  People come into this game with certain expectations, and need to learn to be happy with having paid for a game that kinda works, most of the time for most people (except all the time for a lucky group, and none of the time for an unluckier crew).  They also need to learn that any voicing of complaint or criticism, without Bachelor-of-Science-in-Computing quality logs and engineer-level narrative descriptions will not be met with assurances and that silly "customer service" that many have become spoiled by in other parts of the commercial sector, but will instead be met with ridicule by the community they're seeking reassurance from, and then promptly silenced.

But hey, don't let any negativity from disaffected customers invade your safe space.  It's always cool to throw rocks at the newcomers and the disgruntled.  

Incidentally, kudos to @sal_vager for coming on here and doing the right thing by this guy - providing assurances and letting him know his voice was heard, and his issue will be addressed.

[ag3nt108]

I don't think you can infer a disgruntled customer base from a half a dozen doom posts no, I would estimate less than 3% of the customer base even reads the forums.  Regardless anyway Ive made my opinion clear.  Everyone else is of course also entitled to there opinion.

[cfds]

1 hour ago, ag3nt108 said:

I don't think you can infer a disgruntled customer base from a half a dozen doom posts no, I would estimate less than 3% of the customer base even reads the forums.

I would also estimate that less than 5% of the customer base launch the game a second time after playing the tutorial and failing to reach space after an hour of tinkering.

Edited June 7, 2016 by cfds

[rkman]

On 6-6-2016 at 8:15 AM, pandaman said:

I understand your frustration, but try and help to pinpoint the issue by giving as much info as you can to squad and others with the same issue..

It's not like this is a new thing, the issues are known: there are many bugs in KSP. http://bugs.kerbalspaceprogram.com/projects/ksp/issues

 

[Nathair]

4 hours ago, cfds said:

I would also estimate that less than 5% of the customer base launch the game a second time after playing the tutorial and failing to reach space after an hour of tinkering.

While I am fully aware that you nethersourced that estimate, I'm not sure you're describing a real problem. KSP is, emphatically, not for everyone. I have recommended it to lots of friends and some of them just weren't that into it, even after some hands-on training. Twitchgamers and KSP just don't seem to mix and I don't think that's something KSP should try to fix. If you don't like an hour's tinkering, maybe you should go back to Overwatch.

[MaxPeck]

5 hours ago, ag3nt108 said:

I don't think you can infer a disgruntled customer base from a half a dozen doom posts no, I would estimate less than 3% of the customer base even reads the forums.  Regardless anyway Ive made my opinion clear.  Everyone else is of course also entitled to there opinion.

*their

I would further estimate that 10% of KSP players¹, on or off the forum are left handed.  We can do this all day.  The bottom line is that the game's broke.  If it weren't, we wouldn't be eagerly awaiting 1.1.3 -a patch specifically meant to do nothing but fix bugs- or be talking about the next iteration of U5 since this one's not getting the job done.  Squad is doing a heroic job of trying to pull it together and make it stable, but it's not there yet.  In the meantime, people are feeling frustrated and voicing those frustrations.  This Forum, for better or worse, is a feedback conduit to the game's developers.  You may think it's unhelpful for Squad to see criticism on here, but that's customer feedback and it's an important part of a product's lifecycle.  You know what's even less helpful?  When someone attempts to air their grievances, and they're pounced on by an elitist clique of "my version works fine, you're crazy" community members who see it as their mission in life to squelch complainers.

I, personally, think it's time for another rule: 1(k) (or whatever we're up to): do not attempt to silence, shame, or otherwise discourage users from giving product feedback, no matter how "useful" or "unhelpful" you think it is.  @sal_vager handled this appropriately, in that he addressed the person's problem, acknowledged it, and said there are fixes on the way.  That is all that most angry posters are looking for, is some reassurances *from the actual game makers* that it's all under control.  What turns these threads from complaint threads to rage riots is the inevitable stream of self-appointed forum guardians who come into these things, and instead of letting Squad say "we're on it, thanks for taking the time to voice your issue", instead take it upon themselves to put down the "whiners".

^1. about 10% of the total population is estimated to be left-handed.  see http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/29/left-handed-facts-lefties_n_2005864.html

[pandaman]

22 minutes ago, rkman said:

It's not like this is a new thing, the issues are known: there are many bugs in KSP. http://bugs.kerbalspaceprogram.com/projects/ksp/issues

 

I agree, it is known and it's not new.

But that doesn't mean that extra details won't be helpful.

Even assuming a pure stock install, every user is different in how they play, and most users 'set ups' in terms of hardware will be different.

Pinpointing the actual cause can be very difficult,  the more data they have the greater the chance they can narrow down the list of potential causes. 

[wumpus]

19 hours ago, Kerbart said:

On the other hand, I'm experiencing bugs in commercial software that I've paid 4 digits for. Bugs that, by KSP forum standards, “break the software” (*cough*). And that were listed in said software’s userforum over five years and many releases ago. 

One problem with software as a whole is that those higher cost bits tend to have lower volume and thus fewer "user testers" to find bugs.  They tend to not work.  Another issue is that they rely more on salesmanship than on building better software.

One thing that Squad should really think long and hard about are "required mods".  If things like kerbal alarm clock and kerbal engineer (possibly kerbal attachment system as well) are absolutely required by at least a majority of KSP players (at least the ones who play enough to hit the bugs), then KSP had better not have buggy interactions with them.  As long as Squad claims absolutely no support for any of them (with the exceptions of those brought into stock KSP) there will be these problems (I suspect that they unofficially fix some bugs, but can't be sure).

I'd really like to know why KSP can't save the state during a quicksave, but I suspect that Squad has a huge list of emails going back to Unity about this very thing (since unity handles the physics...).

[Guest]

Yeah, I've also stopped playing KSP because of the glitches.

I think I'll only come back a few versions ahead, if the game actually gets optimized instead of buggier every update. I've been having trouble with KSP since 0.90, 1.1 was the tipping point for me.

[AbacusWizard]

2 hours ago, wumpus said:

One thing that Squad should really think long and hard about are "required mods".

Even those vary heavily from player to player. I've never used Kerbal Alarm Clock or Kerbal Engineer, but I consider KIS/KAS to be absolutely vital to the game.

[Snark]

8 hours ago, wumpus said:

One thing that Squad should really think long and hard about are "required mods".  If things like kerbal alarm clock and kerbal engineer (possibly kerbal attachment system as well) are absolutely required by at least a majority of KSP players

To which I agree with,

6 hours ago, AbacusWizard said:

Even those vary heavily from player to player.

There's no such thing as a "required mod".  Plenty of players consider MechJeb and/or KER to be essential; for me, I neither need nor want them, and they'd be game-ruiners for me.  (Not that there's anything wrong with them; they're just not my cup of tea.)

There's basically no mod you can come up with that everyone wants.

[cantab]

Agreed. For my part it's PreciseNode, followed a close second by FAR.

[wumpus]

2 minutes ago, Snark said:

To which I agree with,

There's no such thing as a "required mod".  Plenty of players consider MechJeb and/or KER to be essential; for me, I neither need nor want them, and they'd be game-ruiners for me.  (Not that there's anything wrong with them; they're just not my cup of tea.)

There's basically no mod you can come up with that everyone wants.

I had made a reply pointing out how KE changes a the game to an "engineering game" from "iterate until it stops exploding".  The two games are wildly different, and I can see plenty of people wanting one but not the other.  I also recall a thread that was looking for parts nobody uses (presumably parts hit extra hard with the nerf bat would be cheating).

I wouldn't be so sure.  I checked your mod list and now have to try "Better Crew Assignments".  After watching Jeb repeatedly stowing away on rescue missions, I am hoping that one mod is one that "everybody wants" (at least, once they've heard of it).

[maranble14]

On 6/6/2016 at 7:02 AM, X-SR71 said:

Strange, I haven't had a single crash in 1.1. Though funny stuff does happen from time to time, like parts of the user interface go missing in the vab.

 

I run the 64bit version launched from Steam, and only have the KER mod installed.

I've gotten that weird disappearance of the UI as well. Glad I'm not the only one haha. 

[Snark]

1 hour ago, wumpus said:

I had made a reply pointing out how KE changes a the game to an "engineering game" from "iterate until it stops exploding".

Or in my case, "game where you do actual rocket science to work out the numbers yourself."  Yes, I enjoy punching numbers into a calculator (I'm a little weird, that way).  I also enjoy developing the skill (with lots and lots of practice) of being able to eyeball a mission and just slap together a rocket that fits the bill.  KER would take both of those away from me.

Moderately off-topic stuff in spoiler section.

Spoiler

 

1 hour ago, wumpus said:

I checked your mod list and now have to try "Better Crew Assignments".  After watching Jeb repeatedly stowing away on rescue missions, I am hoping that one mod is one that "everybody wants" (at least, once they've heard of it).

Heh, thanks.  I love it myself, which is why I wrote it-- I'm an absent-minded fella and I got bitten by bring-the-stranded-kerbal-aboard-and-hey-the-pod-is-full-AAAAAARGH thing one too many times.  Most of my mods seem to start out with me posting an "I wish the game would do this" rant in the Suggestions forum... and then some time later I get tired of waiting and go make it do that myself. 

The interesting thing is, it can be surprisingly difficult to guess what people will find popular.  When I wrote it, I thought BetterCrewAssignment had the potential to be really popular.  And yet in terms of popularity, it's not even int he same league as BetterBurnTime, which is in many ways a much simpler mod.  BetterCrewAssignment actually got picked for Modding Monday (squee!  still jazzed over that...) ... and yet that made barely a blip in its download numbers.  Go figure. 

Anyway, I hope you enjoy it!

 

[DChurchill]

11 hours ago, Snark said:

Or in my case, "game where you do actual rocket science to work out the numbers yourself."  Yes, I enjoy punching numbers into a calculator (I'm a little weird, that way).  I also enjoy developing the skill (with lots and lots of practice) of being able to eyeball a mission and just slap together a rocket that fits the bill.  KER would take both of those away from me.

Gah. I'm an analyst. All I do is crunch numbers all day. Don't wanna do that at home.

[offtheball]

The crashes in 1.1 aren't a bug, they're a feature. Handy moments to get you away from the game for a few minutes. Opportunities to go eat, talk to your loved ones, maybe take a walk in that beautiful sunshine, until you hear the main menu music and bolt straight back, locking the door behind you, not to be seen again.

[Snark]

1 hour ago, DChurchill said:

Gah. I'm an analyst. All I do is crunch numbers all day. Don't wanna do that at home.

See, I'm the other way around.  I'm a software engineer, which means I never get to play with numbers myself.  I spend all day getting machines to do it.  They get to have all the fun.

So when I'm home, I like to do what most people do:  kick back and relax with a calculator and run some numbers.

(erm... that is what most people do, isn't it?)

[DChurchill]

51 minutes ago, Snark said:

See, I'm the other way around.  I'm a software engineer, which means I never get to play with numbers myself.  I spend all day getting machines to do it.  They get to have all the fun.

So when I'm home, I like to do what most people do:  kick back and relax with a calculator and run some numbers.

(erm... that is what most people do, isn't it?)

Heh, oddly enough, I have to write code on occasion, mostly VBA, but when I do it's like a little break from numbers.

[SciMan]

Regarding the crashing, I only have two sources of crashing on my heavily modded 64-bit install.

"Delete part in VAB" crash (I'm betting this is the single most common crash right now). If it's a multithreading issue like I've heard several times on these forums, it's going to take quite a while to find, and it'll probably end up being a Unity 5 bug instead of a KSP bug. I don't think Squad has access to the source code for the Unity 5 engine, so they'll be in the same boat as us. Waiting for the update that's supposed to fix the bugs.

And the usual "play game for 4+ hours continuously" crash, I'm pretty sure that one's pretty minor memory leak of some kind.

Spoiler

 

The situation with the VAB crash might be repeated with the whatever is causing landing gear to want to go any direction except in a straight line.
The wheel physics was probably meant to be used in a car racing game, and those usually have the cars simulated as a "brick" with 4 wheel colliders. There's no flex, so there is no chance for the wheels to get misaligned, so the "car" always tracks straight when the steering wheel is centered and it's not in a skid.
Not so in KSP. Due to the joint system, there's always going to be "some" flex or physics jitter between the parts in any creation. This is enough to create a tiny misalignment, and that causes other stuff to start flexing, and soon enough another plane is sliding sideways off the runway to it's nearly certain doom.
Rovers typically operate at lower speeds, where this is less of a problem. It's still noticeable, but it's more of a gentle drift that can be countered with reaction wheel torque, instead of something that sends your vehicle into a turn that will continue until destruction of the vehicle/wheels, or a complete stop.

Basically, right now in KSP, every wheeled vehicle feels like a car that has bald tires, worn out balljoints and tierod ends, and bad shocks. The steering wheel is more of a suggestion than a command, especially for aircraft.

 

 

Edited June 8, 2016 by SciMan