Orbit-Capable Homemade Rocket

[Green Baron]

Depends on the airspace. If the rocket is going through controlled airspace you need to file a flight plan. I can imagine that if your serious enough and that plan is not too ridiculous that the flight plan will be accepted. You open it (phone call), start the rocket, watch it 'splode, and then close the flightplan ('nother phone call). I mean these guys are not there to make life more complicated, so why should they reject such a thing if there is no apparent danger to other traffic (IF !) ?

I don't know what regulations apply to low orbital space / edge of stratosphere, but i would guess that the technical problems are the bigger ones ...

 

[A Fuzzy Velociraptor]

8 hours ago, VaPaL said:

@p1t1o There's a legal limit to amateur rockets right? IIRC they can't reach a hight limit or they can be considerate a missile or something like that. (at least in a documentary I saw about amateur rockets int US, I'm not from there and I don't know about other countries)

At least for the US, the maximum height for a rocket to be classed as an amateur rocket according to the FAA is 150km (93.2 statute miles). Even if you could achieve orbit at that altitude and impulse restrictions it wouldnt be a very long lasting orbit. Also I imagine a number of additional restrictions would apply there.

Though in general going to space is hard but relative to orbit it is very easy. You only need about 1.4km/s delta V to the Karman Line but you'll need about 9.5-10km/s to LEO.

31-1-6. DEFINITIONS

a. Amateur rocket – an unmanned rocket that is propelled by a motor or motors having a combined total impulse of 889,600 Newton-seconds (200,000 pound-seconds) or less; and cannot reach an altitude greater that 150 kilometers (93.2 statute miles above the Earth's surface.

b. Amateur Rocket classes:

1. Class 1 - a model rocket that uses no more than 125 grams (4.4 ounces) of propellant; uses a slow-burning propellant; is made of paper, wood, or breakable plastic; contains no substantial metal parts; and weighs no more than 1,500 grams (53 ounces) including the propellant.

2. Class 2 – a high power rocket, other than a model rocket, that is propelled by a motor or motors having a combined total impulse of 40,960 Newton-seconds (9,208 pound-seconds) or less.

3. Class 3 – an advanced high power rocket, other than a model rocket or high-power rocket.

c. Launch Vehicles. Vehicles built to operate in, or place a payload in, outer space or, a suborbital rocket. Part 400 requires that launch vehicle operations be licensed by AST

Edited June 28, 2016 by A Fuzzy Velociraptor

[wumpus]

Just now, Streetwind said:

The problem with these so-called hybrid rockets is that they don't scale well.

Which isn't a problem for an 8m rocket.  It is also a much smaller issue than "run for your life explosions" (not sure what happened on the ground at scaled composites).

Just now, kiwi1960 said:

That is to say it cannot be done, in the USA, you will need clearance from the FAA to exceed the amateur height restrictions and probably permission from NASA to enter an orbit where it won't damage anything.. it can be done... but I'm thinking it might be easier to get blood from a stone.

Here is an attempt by a technology/rumour website to field a balloon-assisted rocket into space: http://www.theregister.co.uk/science/lohan/

They moved from the UK to the USA in hopes of a less regulated environment, but are still sitting around waiting for the FAA/NASA to grant approval (I think the FAA is the problem).  Oddly enough, if can really stick something into orbit you are under NASA regulation and the FAA has much more limited influence (it may also help to be buy a launchpad at KSC, not sure if those rules follow in launching at non-NASA locations).

Somehow it might be interesting trying to declare an 8m rocket when traveling to Trinidad/Tobago or other locations unlikely to have space-based regulations.  Launching in other countries might be easier.  Building/moving the rockets there is another story (and anybody capable of managing an ITAR issue might not be able to work again if they ran afoul of those laws).

[kiwi1960]

Sadly, all U.N. nations have regulations concerning space.

New Zealand is about to enter the race by lunching small commercial rockets and while we have the U.N. inspired regs... we signed up to the US ones as well...

Even with that, it seems pretty easy to launch from here (law wise) as our C.A.A (Civil Aviation Agency) seems more relaxed about allowing launches. While we have jets flying everywhere, they do not deviate much... the problem would be smaller planes... easily fixed.... send them to NZ.

[PB666]

11 hours ago, Rdivine said:

I've edited point 2 to include LOX. I guess its a necessity.

Nope, still excluded. 

6 hours ago, Kerbart said:

Tell me what European country is totally cool with launching guided missiles from your backyard. I really like to know. Australia is mostly desert, so I'm sure it's totally fine to launch privately owned ICBM's without any paper work. But I think that 90% of the people here on the forum will run into issues with, if it's not ITAR, some very similarly restrictive legislation when it comes to launching anything that reaches an altitude of even 10km or more.

Just take the rocket 200 miles off shore, carry behind your boat an aluminum john boat. Put some out riggers on it tonstabikize it,ma long rope and wait for a calm day. The best way to get up now is to use a gps guidance computer. But for really small rockets, make a deal to launch it from a high south american plateau, it will make all the difference in the world as to hiw far down wind the rocket gets.,Try for a plateau around 12000 feet. 

[pincushionman]

1 hour ago, PB666 said:

Just take the rocket 200 miles off shore, carry behind your boat an aluminum john boat.

A john boat.

Really.

You may not appreciate how much energy, and thus size, we're talking about here.

[PB666]

39 minutes ago, pincushionman said:

A john boat.

Really.

You may not appreciate how much energy, and thus size, we're talking about here.

John boats go to about 24 feet by 8 feet

You dont really care how much energy it produces ones twr > 1, the boat is minimal compared to the cost of the rocket.

Edited June 29, 2016 by PB666

[RainDreamer]

What i wonder though is how to design a vaccum rated rocket engine as an amateur with no acess to a vaccum chamber to test.

[bengee777]

Here's how I would do it. First I'd get 4 [He] weather balloons (at an army surplus store, maybey)  then make a high altitude plywood launch platform, therefore saving some DeltaV. The actual rocket, well I'd make liquid [H2] by making a HHO generator, and then cooling it to liquid via liquid nitrogen (also make LOX this way). It'd have a launch TWR of 1.1 and would propel itself to LEO. The payload would be a probe powered by EM Drives (RCS is EM drive) (you should google EM drives) a few solar panels from hardware store. Theoretically It could go to Mars as it's fuel source is the sun. By the way EM drives are made of copper, here's a graphic.

[RainDreamer]

How are you planning to make something require so much percision like an EM drive with tools available to an amateur? You can't even test if your device is working without professional grade tool.

Balloon launch platform would be even harder for an amateur because the slightest perturbance would send your rocket off course, and it is very likely that your baloon platform won't be stable.

Edited June 29, 2016 by RainDreamer

[1of6Billion]

19 hours ago, Rdivine said:

The stage will burn for about 57 seconds, after which it will separate, revealing a second stage about 1m in length, and 80cm in diameter

You want to launch your sofa?

[lajoswinkler]

What is "homemade"? If you think of rockets made with home cooked fuels, then no. Never. Impossible.

4 hours ago, bengee777 said:

Here's how I would do it. First I'd get 4 [He] weather balloons (at an army surplus store, maybey)  then make a high altitude plywood launch platform, therefore saving some DeltaV. The actual rocket, well I'd make liquid [H2] by making a HHO generator, and then cooling it to liquid via liquid nitrogen (also make LOX this way). It'd have a launch TWR of 1.1 and would propel itself to LEO. The payload would be a probe powered by EM Drives (RCS is EM drive) (you should google EM drives) a few solar panels from hardware store. Theoretically It could go to Mars as it's fuel source is the sun. By the way EM drives are made of copper, here's a graphic.

Please don't use that crackpot terminology. It does not suit the KSP forum. There is no such thing as "HHO".

[peadar1987]

Easiest way of getting a home-made rocket into orbit? Move into the ventilation system of NASA's VAB and live there until you get squatter's rights

[p1t1o]

5 hours ago, bengee777 said:

 (you should google EM drives)

Look what forum you are on, its been googled to its last breath and the state of play right now is that this technology is still seriously up-in-the-air (no pun intended).

 

5 hours ago, bengee777 said:

well I'd make liquid [H2] by making a HHO generator, and then cooling it to liquid via liquid nitrogen (also make LOX this way).

You won't do anything of the sort, you will just have it delivered ready made. 

NB: you cant liquefy hydrogen with liquid nitrogen unless you are going to build some kind of pressurised refrigerator, and if you are going to build that, you can build a machine that does it without nitrogen at all. Just buy the damn stuff, LH2 is like $2-3/kg.

NB2: yes, you can electrolyse water to hydrogen and oxygen, but "HHO generator" (and you actually do get H2 gas, not "HH") comes from bunk pseudoscience used to sell magic widgets that make your car more efficient. The kind of thing that says "Now with 80% extra magnets for more ionising power!" and the like.

[cantab]

16 hours ago, A Fuzzy Velociraptor said:

cannot reach an altitude greater that 150 kilometers (93.2 statute miles above the Earth's surface.

Emphasis mine. I think that would rule out an orbital launcher having amateur status under US law, because any orbital launcher if fired straight up would exceed that altitude greatly.

[RainDreamer]

Well, looking at it from a different angle, you can prob call the north korean rockets homemade.

[kiwi1960]

3 hours ago, RainDreamer said:

Well, looking at it from a different angle, you can prob call the north korean rockets homemade.

using Chinese tech? Home made??? yeah, kind of. Home made or amateur? Given most fail before lift off, I'd say amateur.

 

[vger]

On 6/28/2016 at 6:36 PM, wumpus said:

Here is an attempt by a technology/rumour website to field a balloon-assisted rocket into space: http://www.theregister.co.uk/science/lohan/

I've been wondering for a long time if using a balloon as a first-stage could get an amateur rocket into orbit. At the very least, much higher than any other has gone.

[Camacha]

29 minutes ago, vger said:

I've been wondering for a long time if using a balloon as a first-stage could get an amateur rocket into orbit. At the very least, much higher than any other has gone.

I remember balloons being discussed a few times on the forums, but the conclusion always seems to be that stabiity is an issue, as is the weight limit combined with the lack of any vertical horizontal speed. The horizontal component is, as we know, an important one for orbit. If these folks have solutions for those problems or think the issues are not that big, it would be most interesting to see what they come up with

Edited June 30, 2016 by Camacha

[Dafni]

12 minutes ago, Camacha said:

... the lack of any vertical speed...

pretty sure you meant horizontal speed, right? And yeah, getting into orbit is all about horizontal speed indeed.

[Camacha]

1 minute ago, Dafni said:

pretty sure you meant horizontal speed, right? And yeah, getting into orbit is all about horizontal speed indeed.

Yeah, obviously Thanks, I corrected my previous post.

Of course, having a much less draggy environment could help gaining that speed a lot, but there seems to be a precarious relationship between gaining altitude and taking mass with you.

[RainDreamer]

On other notes, the day an amateur can make an orbit capable rocket is the day we already become a space bound species. I just have to wonder about the amount of space junk that would be created.

[kiwi1960]

10 minutes ago, RainDreamer said:

On other notes, the day an amateur can make an orbit capable rocket is the day we already become a space bound species. I just have to wonder about the amount of space junk that would be created.

Except, there is a difference between putting a simple payload into orbit as opposed to a human being... virtually anyone can put an object.... or a mouse.... into orbit with a bit of planning... but would you want to? unless you had a set up like NASA, then whatever you send up, would be lost, you would have no idea where it would come down, if it does... and for most, these "toys" are not cheap... it would be like throwing money away.

[Camacha]

2 minutes ago, kiwi1960 said:

Except, there is a difference between putting a simple payload into orbit as opposed to a human being... virtually anyone can put an object.... or a mouse.... into orbit with a bit of planning... but would you want to? unless you had a set up like NASA, then whatever you send up, would be lost, you would have no idea where it would come down, if it does... and for most, these "toys" are not cheap... it would be like throwing money away.

Getting something down from orbit is again a whole new ball game. Not only do you need to add deorbit engines, greatly increasing weight, but also heat shielding, parachutes and whatnot. I can see leaving something in orbit being useful, though. As long as it can transmit data back to Earth, you can do a lot of interesting things with a small amount of weight. If only indepedently proving that the Earth is a sphere after all

However, the notion that anyone could do it with a bit of planning seems to be underestimating what is required to successfully do so quite a bit. So far, amateurs have only grazed the Kármán line and those seem to be fairly well organised groups of capable amateurs.

[RainDreamer]

What I mean by my statement is that, if we get to the point where amateurs can reach orbit, then actual space programs has already gone so, so far beyond. 

And well now that I think about it, that may also mean anyone with bad intention may shoot down sattellites or hold them hostage.