Any of you out there Good with shuttles?

[Dermeister]

Using Ferram Stock reentry heat my nose cone keeps blowing up on reentry due to heat... I do renter with about a 20 to 40 Degree AOA. I can't seem to stop my nose cone from over heating. I provided a screenshot but i'm asking you experts out there for advice suggestions ect. I thought of using a procedural Heat shield at nosecone but it's to flat and creates a lot of drag for the glide back home. I make an unpowered landing.I tried stock nose cone I've also tried a procedural nose cone they both have the same heat tolerance..... I think my heat settings are at 100%

P.S it's also a shallow reentry I pretty much run out of DV just before orbit at about 7200ms so the entry is shallow for testing!

 

 

^^ nose cone always explodes no matter how shallow I make my reentry.

I'm also curious as to how do I keep a high AOA better? I've tried to keep my COL close to my COM and give big control surfaces..... the noze eventually just bobs up and down. Correct me if i'm wrong but the Crew cabin also has heat resistance of 2400 no? why does the cone blow but not the cabin O_O!

Edited July 4, 2016 by Dermeister

[bewing]

Are you willing to go with a shielded docking port or a klaw?

Those rounded nosecones have no mass. So they can't absorb or conduct away any heat. So yeah, they blow like popcorn. The more pointy nosecones do work a bit better. But if you are having reentry heating problems, then going in the blunt direction works much better. But you need a teeny bit more dV to get a blunt nose to orbit. Which can be a major drawback.

[Dermeister]

Humm this makes sense i'm using the procedural nose cone  now so I can make it more blunt... I can't really increase it's mass but you give me an idea .. what if I were to take a procedural tank.mark it as structure .. because it gives it more mass... and keep it blunt so I can slap on a procedural heat shield... do you think that would work?

Like so ..

 

Also you can icrease it's mass I remember you can make it a Led ballast tank! so essentially you can have a led noze cone... only thing now doe it's gunna mess up my COL and COM ratio hmmm hey thanks you gave me a few ideas... now all I have to fix is my pitch authority.

 

P.S how do I give you rep? I wanted to 1 up you on rep! this was super helpful as it gave me ideas!

Edited July 4, 2016 by Dermeister

[Dermeister]

1 hour ago, bewing said:

Are you willing to go with a shielded docking port or a klaw?

Those rounded nosecones have no mass. So they can't absorb or conduct away any heat. So yeah, they blow like popcorn. The more pointy nosecones do work a bit better. But if you are having reentry heating problems, then going in the blunt direction works much better. But you need a teeny bit more dV to get a blunt nose to orbit. Which can be a major drawback.

I'm sorry for the double post i tried to quote you in the post above but it would not let me

[bewing]

That's OK.  Besides "liking" posts, I don't know how to give rep. Maybe giving votes also works.

But I will be very interested to hear if your procedural heatshield technique works.

 

[Dermeister]

2 hours ago, bewing said:

That's OK.  Besides "liking" posts, I don't know how to give rep. Maybe giving votes also works.

But I will be very interested to hear if your procedural heatshield technique works.

 

 

Don't worry ive been up all night working on this i will let you know... as of now i have to mod my Tank for more DV and figure out a system to engage the OMS to boost me for more TWR due to the added fuel and procedural boosters have reached there limits so i have to Design bigger Liquide boosters... i don't know how the whole shuttle system will perform with throttle liquid boosters... with slides it was ok for launch but i have a lot of testing to do b4 i re reach space for reentry testing. Shuttles are hard work Damn.. lol I do want ot get this to work I've been spending2 weeks + on this shuttle 1 to make it look good 2 to make it fliable and glidable.. this thing maintained a good 200 MS + on Gentle glide... was pretty aerodynamic but now with this flat nose i don't know... this might not even be RTLS possible anymore due to shorter gliding ranges. .. typing this post made me feel like a huge nerd... God i'm just a soldier and here i am making a shuttle! I need spectacles and 1 of those Shirts with a front pocket so i can put my pen in it and make calculations  O_O << nerdy face

Also another thing i noticed my Hydrazine RCS system is sluggish not effective much urg i'm going to have to redesign that too... but i will do that later because i don't see myself docking with anything anytime soon. but i disable the Torque i nthe cabin so i need RCS for rotation control.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Dermeister

[Speeding Mullet]

Feel free to check into the Shuttle Challenge Thread v3 and ask for advice on this!  There's plenty of people with modded and FAR entries, and many many experienced shuttle builders kicking about. You can link them back to this thread for exposure or simply ask in the thread proper (although I would request you post your images in gallery format to help with minimizing post length  ).  Also you can review my Buran thread if you want to delve into it a little more.

How else can I help.  Well it looks like you have a nice shuttle going there.  You have a few options in how to hold a steep(er) AoA based on your design (disclaimer - I don't have and have never used FAR):

1) Add SAS authority - More units equals more weight.  The is a simple solution but not that desirable so avoid if you can.  Besides it's way more satisfying creating a well balanced shuttle rather than a brute force heavyweight.

2) Clip a pair of AV-R8 winglets into the cockpit.  Some people don't like clipping but it does work.

3) Increase the maximum deflection on your flaps, and also engage both your split tail plane and your body flap on the way in (it looks you you have an active body flap there?).  This will help with aero-braking and also holding a steeper AOA

4) Doesn't look you have much RCS pointing up and down on the nose.  3 up 3 down normally is a good starting point.  You can remove some of the foward pointing ones if you are going for styling points and mount them on the wings.

5)  Implement the TiltProbeCore™ Solution as devised by @n.b.z..  It really does work well to hold a specific angle of attack, remarkably well.  Definitely worth a try (and only uses stock parts).

 

I think enough people have chipped in on the nose cone with solutions, but one other thing worth trying is mounting a couple of radiator panels inside your cargo bay.  It seems to help quite a lot with dissipating re-entry heat so may help prevent nose conesplosions.

Good luck and let me know if you need any more help!

EDIT:  You are re-entering at over 7km/s....GULP!  I presume you are not operating in a stock planetary system here!?

SM

 

Edited July 4, 2016 by Speeding Mullet

[Dermeister]

33 minutes ago, Speeding Mullet said:

Feel free to check into the Shuttle Challenge Thread v3 and ask for advice on this!  There's plenty of people with modded and FAR entries, and many many experienced shuttle builders kicking about. You can link them back to this thread for exposure or simply ask in the thread proper (although I would request you post your images in gallery format to help with minimizing post length  ).  Also you can review my Buran thread if you want to delve into it a little more.

How else can I help.  Well it looks like you have a nice shuttle going there.  You have a few options in how to hold a steep(er) AoA based on your design (disclaimer - I don't have and have never used FAR):

1) Add SAS authority - More units equals more weight.  The is a simple solution but not that desirable so avoid if you can.  Besides it's way more satisfying creating a well balanced shuttle rather than a brute force heavyweight.

2) Clip a pair of AV-R8 winglets into the cockpit.  Some people don't like clipping but it does work.

3) Increase the maximum deflection on your flaps, and also engage both your split tail plane and your body flap on the way in (it looks you you have an active body flap there?).  This will help with aero-braking and also holding a steeper AOA

4) Doesn't look you have much RCS pointing up and down on the nose.  3 up 3 down normally is a good starting point.  You can remove some of the foward pointing ones if you are going for styling points and mount them on the wings.

5)  Implement the TiltProbeCore™ Solution as devised by @n.b.z..  It really does work well to hold a specific angle of attack, remarkably well.  Definitely worth a try (and only uses stock parts).

 

I think enough people have chipped in on the nose cone with solutions, but one other thing worth trying is mounting a couple of radiator panels inside your cargo bay.  It seems to help quite a lot with dissipating re-entry heat so may help prevent nose conesplosions.

Good luck and let me know if you need any more help!

EDIT:  You are re-entering at over 7km/s....GULP!  I presume you are not operating in a stock planetary system here!?

SM

 

Thank you for this post it has a lot of helpful info! i will check the Shuttle thread later I don't want to spam the forums with my problems doe! sometimes i feel like i have so many questions! I would like to know how to put my screenshots into gallery mode! i'm not sure how to do that! But if i can learn how i will.I will for sure check out your buran thread :). I can use all the help i can get!

1) I disabled all The SAS even the cockpit SAS Torque is turned off! i have a tiny probe core hidden inside the nose for launch Prograde hold capability but it doesn't have sas Torque. I refuse to cheat using SAS Torque!

2) I don't need to do that it's got ok pitch control in thicker parts and i think if i clipped those in it would throw my COL and COM balance!

3)Good idea i'm only at 25 deflection i think! ill check that out! The split tail spoilers get engaged! don't worry i worked on those for hours to get them just right! i'm going to use those for sure! - I do have a body flap how ever it's set as a control surface for more pitch authority and it's also set in AOA mode using FAR. I'm not sure if i'm using that flap Properly but it helps reduce the needed AOA on landing so that my landing gear can be moved further forward on the COM so that the nose doesn't get pushed down to hard on landing! But like i said i'm curious on how to properly make use of body flaps! if you know a better way please show me :).

4) Yes i agree RCS needs a lot of work right now it's only a basic setup to help me during reentry and to rotate a bit in space! i will have to look up ways on how to make better RCS systems! i do make use of RCS build aid! excellent mod!

5)sounds interesting i will have to check how this works ! because i already have a probe core in the noze! i'm guessing you would tilt it at a certain angle and then do "control from here" and then hold a level setting but because it's at an angle you would have that Specific AOA? It's a smart way to hold the same AOA every time! i might try it!

I will keep you guys updated for sure!

Edited July 4, 2016 by Dermeister

[Speeding Mullet]

14 minutes ago, Dermeister said:

I would like to know how to put my screenshots into gallery mode!

Drag your images to the imgur upload, and it has the option to create the gallery when you upload.  Once your upload has finished simply copy the bit after the last slash of the link (for example  http://imgur.com/a/Lg89q) (in this case Lg89g) and click the "i" in the thread creator on the forum here and hey presto:

 

1)  Fair enough - Makes your life much much harder but will be amazingly satisfying when you get a well balanced shuttle in the end!  Best luck going ahead without SAS.

2)  All good, it's there as a backup if you need it but if you consider SAS cheaty, then you will definitely consider clipping control surfaces cheaty

3)  Sounds like you have your body flap set up well enough!  I made mine as per the following screenshot, its a solution not necessarily the best.  I've shifted the FOV massively in this screenshot so the body flap is not nearly as big as it looks but it does stick out quite a bit.  Your body flap is pretty much in line with with the scale of the NASA shuttle so if you are going for realism then you've got it right, just see if you can squeeze a little more deflection out of it!

 

 

4)  You can mount them on cubic octagonal struts in clusters if you like, that way you don't have to tweak each one to the right position.  Or you can save parts and use the editing tools to move each one into position.  Let me know if you need any more help once you have roughly got your RCS design iterated.  RCS build aid will help you for sure!

5)  Yep you got it, that's a good TLDR for the link lol.

Also - Re-entering from over 7km/s - That's brutal, you aren't operating in a stock KSP system here are you?

 

SM

[Dermeister]

1 hour ago, Speeding Mullet said:

Drag your images to the imgur upload, and it has the option to create the gallery when you upload.  Once your upload has finished simply copy the bit after the last slash of the link (for example  http://imgur.com/a/Lg89q) (in this case Lg89g) and click the "i" in the thread creator on the forum here and hey presto:

1)  Fair enough - Makes your life much much harder but will be amazingly satisfying when you get a well balanced shuttle in the end!  Best luck going ahead without SAS.

2)  All good, it's there as a backup if you need it but if you consider SAS cheaty, then you will definitely consider clipping control surfaces cheaty

3)  Sounds like you have your body flap set up well enough!  I made mine as per the following screenshot, its a solution not necessarily the best.  I've shifted the FOV massively in this screenshot so the body flap is not nearly as big as it looks but it does stick out quite a bit.  Your body flap is pretty much in line with with the scale of the NASA shuttle so if you are going for realism then you've got it right, just see if you can squeeze a little more deflection out of it!

 

 

4)  You can mount them on cubic octagonal struts in clusters if you like, that way you don't have to tweak each one to the right position.  Or you can save parts and use the editing tools to move each one into position.  Let me know if you need any more help once you have roughly got your RCS design iterated.  RCS build aid will help you for sure!

5)  Yep you got it, that's a good TLDR for the link lol.

Also - Re-entering from over 7km/s - That's brutal, you aren't operating in a stock KSP system here are you?

 

SM

AHH i see I only just now noticed in imgur you can upload more than one at a time! i would upload them individually! lol

3) YEa it's at max Deflection! the flaps were only at 20 i went up to 28 i will test it when i finished rebuilding my tank! because i'm using RSS i need a lot of DV! and because i can't make procedural tanks as wide as the real shuttle it's going to be a slimmer but longer tank!

 

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I tried doing the Album thing... it doesn't work it just posts mobo jumbo!

4)

This is my RCS rear Setup! it used to be on octagonal struts but in FAR it created drag so i opted to create smooth rounded surfaces for my rcs module! RCS is giving me grief doe it's not always firing some ports work some don't i think it might be a RF bug? but i'm not sure.

 

5)Ohh i'm far from Stalk i'm In REAL SOLAR SYSTEM! so real scale earth! Atmosphere only starts at 140km :P! i need a lot more DV than stock! thus why i'm rebuilding my fuel tank and I need bigger solids....OR option B which i'm not sure if it's plausible but design Liquid boosters.

 

 

Edited July 4, 2016 by Dermeister

[Dermeister]

SO on an update Turns out the liquid boosters i can design aren't powerful enough to lift the stack. And the solids i have aren't big enough I'm stuck at an impass i need bigger better modular Solid boosters

[Dermeister]

On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 3:39 AM, bewing said:

That's OK.  Besides "liking" posts, I don't know how to give rep. Maybe giving votes also works.

But I will be very interested to hear if your procedural heatshield technique works.

 

Still din't get this up to test the noze >_<! I've been trying to design a liquid booster powerfull enough! but the thing with liquid is you add more engines you need more fuel more fuel = more weight.... vicious circle!

Welp this is what the beast looks like so far now I finally get to test the nose cone! Wish I had better Nozels at the bottom of the boosters but I had to use those 2 engines to make sure the boosters gave enough power!

 

This thing flies a lot more stable than I ever could of imagined on launch O_O!

Edited July 5, 2016 by Dermeister

[Dermeister]

On ‎7‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 3:39 AM, bewing said:

That's OK.  Besides "liking" posts, I don't know how to give rep. Maybe giving votes also works.

But I will be very interested to hear if your procedural heatshield technique works.

 

The new nose cone works like a charm !