No True Instruction

[Swacer]

I figure I'm not the first person to feel this way, but I have to ask, why is there so little instruction with this game?  Many of the tutorials give you limited fuel, tell you to "pick" a route (I'm focusing on the mun part 1), but then leave you stranded when you run out of fuel because you didn't pick the "right" route?  Or if I pick the wrong route, and am trying to correct that, so I can finish the tutorial, why do I not have enough fuel to fix my mistake? 

The Point of the Tutorial is to learn, but how can you learn when you don't know what you did wrong to cause you to be low on fuel as it is?

This also applies to the docking tutorial.  Multiple times I've gotten close to the stranded ship, only to run out of fuel because the vague instructions didn't give me exactly where to go?  It isn't fun to spend 20 minutes on a tutorial, only to run out of fuel and not be able to finish it.  Then spend the next 2 hours trying to determine why it keeps happening to no avail?

Moral of the story, can you please either make your instructions more specific (almost a hand holding tutorial), or turn on UNLIMITED fuel during tutorials so I can amend my mistakes and complete the lesson?

My second gripe with instructions is the missions at Mission control during the career mode.  For example, the missions right off the bat with "crew report".  I sat for 20-30 minutes trying to find the option of crew report.  It wasn't until I cheated and looked on youtube that I realized I had to be "on the launch pad, click the Command pod, and hit "O" "  NEVER, not once, was this addressed anywhere.  How can anyone NOT get frustrated with this game, if you're not telling them where to find the things they need to do?  The instructions for that contract should have told you where to find it, so that the contract was essentailly a learning skill opportunity.  Furthermore, nothing explains WHAT the crew report does...I just know it exists now.  This also applies to the tourist missions.  I sat for quite a while trying to figure how what these tourist missions meant, and these are some of the FIRST missions. These should be the most straight forward, and they aren't.  It should say, "1. Do this 2. Get this person on ship 3. Get to this height" 

I honestly shouldn't have to be stuck to the forum and youtube to figure anything out with this game.  it should be clear....

I want to love this game...I really do.  But I'm incredibly agitated by the massive assumptions and explanation short cuts made by the Squad

Edited July 18, 2016 by Swacer

[dafidge9898]

Alt-f12 will bring up a menu that allows you to turn on infinite fuel. When the contracts are asking you to do something like a crew report or science experiment, it's always going to be in the right click menu of the respective part during flight. And regarding the tourists, you treat the tourist like a crew member: when selecting the crew in the VAB or from the launch pad, there's going to be a tourist in addition to your currently available kerbals with the standard engineer, pilot, scientist roles. 

[Swacer]

How do I bring up the menu on a PS4 so I can use unlimited fuel?  And can I use it just on tutorials only?  I noticed it was in the "Settings" when the game first started, but I didn't want to have it on all the time and assumed it wouldn't apply to tutorials.

 

[dafidge9898]

3 minutes ago, Swacer said:

How do I bring up the menu on a PS4 so I can use unlimited fuel?  And can I use it just on tutorials only?  I noticed it was in the "Settings" when the game first started, but I didn't want to have it on all the time and assumed it wouldn't apply to tutorials.

 

I'm sorry but I have no idea how to bring it up on the PS4. If it's in the settings menu on startup, it might still be in the settings menu. You can change the difficulty settings in game, but I don't know if infinite fuel falls under that; it won't hurt to check. 

Edited July 18, 2016 by dafidge9898
Grammar

[Swacer]

I still don't know if this will apply to the tutorials, but I can surely take a look. 

However, it still doesn't solve the fundamental problem of the lack of instruction in this game though.

[Hodari]

It's probably because a lot of aspects of this game are simply too complicated to properly explain in an in-game tutorial.  There's a limit to how much detail you can put in something like that.  They can show you the most basic aspects of how the interface works for building a rocket and maneuver nodes and things like that, but beyond that you basically have two options:

1.  Use whatever knowledge of physics you have to start out with and then experiment on your own from there to find out what works and what doesn't.  And after all, this is what real space programs had to do as well.

2.  Look around online and see what other people have done.  It's pretty safe to assume these days that almost everyone playing the game will have some way of accessing these forums or youtube or many other sites which have tutorials on just about every aspect of the game in FAR more detail than they could possible put into the in-game instructions.  And again, even real space programs probably all watch what their competitors are doing very closely and copy whatever works from them.

[klesh]

At this time there is no way to bring up the cheat menu which has the unlimited propellant option you're looking for.

 

 

[Cerberus738]

There's also the in game kspedia which has a lot of instructions. The learning curve for the game is very steep.

The tutorials are more of a mission setup letting you try certain maneuvers before diving right into the game.  They do a bit of teaching but there's a limit to the hand holding they can do. The tutorials are pretty short so if you mess it up just start over. Don't make the same mistake twice! ;p

[EnderKid2]

I think that very little instruction and a steep learning curve is what makes the game great. The awesomeness of "WOW!!! THAT ACTUALLY WORKED???" is indescribable.

[severedsolo]

 

1 hour ago, Swacer said:

My second gripe with instructions is the missions at Mission control during the career mode.  For example, the missions right off the bat with "crew report".  I sat for 20-30 minutes trying to find the option of crew report.

In fairness, the Science Basics tutorial, does tell you exactly how to do this (I'm on PC, but I imagine it's basically the same for console)

 

As for your fuel issues, the issue is not the "To the Mun" tutorial itself. It does tell you exactly how to plot a maneuvre to the Mun, it even explains the concept of delta-v quite nicely. Your problem is, you don't know how much delta-v you actually have! So, in your case, your burn was a little.. overzealous, but you have no way of knowing this, cause, the game doesn't tell you how much delta-v you have left. This is something that (alot, but not all) of us PC players have wanted for a while. Maybe in 1.2.

[Streetwind]

11 hours ago, Swacer said:

I figure I'm not the first person to feel this way, but I have to ask, why is there so little instruction with this game?  Many of the tutorials give you limited fuel, tell you to "pick" a route (I'm focusing on the mun part 1), but then leave you stranded when you run out of fuel because you didn't pick the "right" route?  Or if I pick the wrong route, and am trying to correct that, so I can finish the tutorial, why do I not have enough fuel to fix my mistake? 

The Point of the Tutorial is to learn, but how can you learn when you don't know what you did wrong to cause you to be low on fuel as it is?

Yes, you are in the tutorial to learn. And, contrary to popular opinion these days, "learning" is not "getting it right the first time".

What good would it do you if the tutorial started you off with infinite fuel? It would literally make it impossible to fail the task. And that, by extension, means you can "succeed" in a way so wrong that it has nothing whatsoever to do anymore with actual spaceflight. Is that what you want to "learn" from the tutorial - what you want to take with you into actual gameplay, where fuel is not unlimited? All that will do is leave you just as frustrated (or more), because the way that worked in the tutorial no longer works during actual gameplay. That would make the entire tutorial pointless. But if you succeed in the tutorial as it is now, then you will know a way that reliably succeeds everytime in the real game too.

No, learning is a process of acquiring useful knowledge - through your own action, and if necessary, also through failure. The first thing the tutorial teaches you is that fuel is limited. This is among the single most important lessons in KSP, and it would be gross negligence to not teach it at the earliest possible opportunity. The second thing the tutorial teaches you is that failure is always an option. KSP may not look like it, because it is a fairly slow game, but it is incredibly skill-based. It is genuinely difficult to do things right, especially for a beginner, and even most good players can still be reduced to slack-jawed awe at a video of someone who pulls off a feat through sheer skill that sounded physically impossible on paper. You need to get used to failure. Your rockets will explode during flight. Your planes will fail to take off. Your one-hour mission to the Mun will end a total loss because you mistimed the landing burn by a second. All this and more will happen to you, repeatedly. And the tutorial says: Ah, too bad, you didn't get it this time! Here, revert and try it again. Which is precisely the lesson you need for the main game. Failure is data. Failure teaches you what needs to be done to succeed. It is your most important teacher of all.

So swallow that frustration down. And trust yourself: you can do this. Give yourself some credit! Failing once or twice does not make you a bad player - it simply makes you someone who has failed less often than a veteran player. Because, trust me when I say this: those people who can steer their rocket to the Mun without even making a maneuver node, and still arrive with 50% fuel left? Those are the ones that experienced pretty much every single way to fail that exists.

[StarStryder]

This seems like a PC vs Console cultural issue.  PC gamers generally have no issue looking up stuff online while playing.  That's a lot harder on a console and so console gamers expect a lot more hand holding.

[Swacer]

3 hours ago, StarStryder said:

This seems like a PC vs Console cultural issue.  PC gamers generally have no issue looking up stuff online while playing.  That's a lot harder on a console and so console gamers expect a lot more hand holding.

Couldn't agree less, its a matter of convenience.  A PC gamer can alt+tab back to the internet to look up something quickly.  Or close the game quickly and get into a browser to get what they need.  A console gamer, a computer is rarely in the same location.  So everytime you need something, its a leave, go to another room, get the computer (unless someone else has it), and then get what you need, then go back.

[Pecan]

Practice is what it takes.

Follow a tutorial.
Practice.
If the next tutorial seems difficult or doesn't make sense.
Practice.
If it's still hard.
Read about that type of mission/manoeuvre (or watch Youtube - almost everyone except Scott Manley and NecroBones is just a know-nothing screamer though*)
Practice.
Repeat.

For instance - if 'To The Mun' seems impossible - how much time have you spent in orbit, just practicing with what manoeuvre nodes do?
Can you even make it to orbit reliably with a ship you designed and built yourself?
Just that first step is no mean feat but unless you've mastered that (for a given value of 'mastered') there's really not much point in even thinking about how you get to Mun.
As Streetwind said, trust yourself but don't expect it to be easy.

Especially docking - it took NASA years to work it out too!

[*Apologies to any others who make well-scripted and -edited videos that actually show how to do things instead of how to fail.  I know you must be out there, but the "*scream* look at me explode!" crowd make it very hard to find you.]

PS: You more or less explained why StarStryder was right when he said, "That's a lot harder on a console and so console gamers expect a lot more hand holding."  It's not derogatory in any way; he explicitly says you expect the [in-game] hand holding because you don't have the same instant-access to the internet that we do on a PC.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Pecan
typo (no doubt there are more)

[Swacer]

Ah yes, I misread that (typed on phone between meetings).  Yes, Star and I are saying the same thing.  That's my bad.

6 minutes ago, Pecan said:

 

For instance - if 'To The Mun' seems impossible - how much time have you spent in orbit, just practicing with what manoeuvre nodes do?
Can you even make it to orbit reliably with a ship you designed and built yourself?
Just that first step is no mean feat but unless you've mastered that (for a given value of 'mastered') there's really not much point in even thinking about how you get to Mun.
As Streetwind said, trust yourself but don't expect it to be easy.

Especially docking - it took NASA years to work it out too!

 

I actually played the career mode yesterday for a couple hours, and could get a ship up on a solid booster about 10km, and then tested the liquid booster to 40km, but now trying to get into orbit, I'm having a heck of a time.  Either too much thrust from the tall solid booster - stacked 2 in stages since I didn't get far with it after liftoff, but then burn up by acending too quickly.  I could do just the liquid booster with many fuel tanks, but that's so expensive in comparison.  That, I'm ok with, as its trial and error, I just wanted more detail in the tutorials, that's all.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Swacer

[Pecan]

Just now, Swacer said:

...That, I'm ok with, as its trial and error, I just wanted more detail in the tutorials, that's all.

Oh yes, your main point is perfectly understandable ... but unlikely to happen :-(  For one thing there's just so much about rocket flight that needs to be explained.  Squad's view has always been that we will have more fun finding out for ourselves and that giving us the numbers (deltaV, for example) would make it too clinical.

As a bit of practical advice; try messing-around practicing in sandbox instead of career mode.  The latter adds so many other constraints (budget, tech-tree, parts- and mass-limits) that you can't really experiment, build, test and understand without a lot of extra hassle.  You can't, for instance, get to orbit with starter parts so need to do science to unlock later ones, which means spending money, which means doing contracts to pay for it ... etc. etc. etc.

Be assured - getting to orbit for the first few times is hard!  Then it stays hard right up until it suddenly isn't and you can put any half-decent ship into space without thinking about it much.
Most of the rest of what you do in space, except landing, is way easier than getting to orbit ^^.
Docking is in a class of its own though.  NO ONE gets rendezvous and docking down without many fails.  I used to hate it and let MechJeb (mod, so not available on console) do it for me.  Now I enjoy the 2001-space-ballet, tranquility of doing it manually (and quicker and more efficiently than MJ),

[Red Iron Crown]

1 hour ago, Swacer said:

Couldn't agree less, its a matter of convenience.  A PC gamer can alt+tab back to the internet to look up something quickly.  Or close the game quickly and get into a browser to get what they need.  A console gamer, a computer is rarely in the same location.  So everytime you need something, its a leave, go to another room, get the computer (unless someone else has it), and then get what you need, then go back.

Sounds like you are agreeing. Consoles make it less convenient to access external resources, so console gamers expect better in game resources, no?

[bewing]

To get to LKO, as a general rule of thumb I figure I'll need about 400 units of liquid fuel. So I make an upper stage with a little more than that. Then I use a kickback SRB plus enough other SRBs to get that upper stage to a good height. Something in the 150km range. That allows a lot of leeway for sloppy launches. Let the SRBs get you up high. Stage. Finish the burn to orbit.

[Swacer]

2 minutes ago, Red Iron Crown said:

Sounds like you are agreeing. Consoles make it less convenient to access external resources, so console gamers expect better in game resources, no?

Yeah, I misread and cleared it up, up above.

[Red Iron Crown]

1 minute ago, Swacer said:

Yeah, I misread and cleared it up, up above.

Well now I've compounded the error by commenting on it. My apologies.  

[evileye.x]

I started to play this game after 1.0 release. Played all tutorials, and I have to say, they are good. May be an average player is bit stupid for this game?.. Don't know. But tutorials are descent and actually became better in 1.1

Also, after in game tutorials Scott Manley's Interstellar helped a lot, and was fun to watch. And, of cause, Kerbal Engineer Redux.

 

[StarStryder]

 

.

On 7/19/2016 at 6:30 PM, Red Iron Crown said:

Well now I've compounded the error by commenting on it. My apologies.  

Don't worry, you weren't the only one. 

Edited July 21, 2016 by StarStryder
Post being criticised was corrected further down the thread.