Simple Plane Design - Help

[Arch3rAc3]

Hello guys. I got KSP about two weeks ago on Xbox One (Although I have some expericence from the PC version, though I had to run it at the lowest settings and 20FPS).

Now, I started carrer mode and made my way on the tech tree to unlock the aviation node so I could do the observation contracts more easily (or so I though). Now the problem is, it seems to be impossible to build something that flies (or even takesoff - the uneven runway made of dirt doesn't help it much as well). I've wasted the whole night yesterday plus almost two hours now making every different type of aircraft I could imagine with the limited parts I had just to see none of them could even takeoff (some would even be stuck in place or going slowly reverse at full throttle) - I tried building STOL; HTOL; VTOL; STOVL (with parachutes for landing); assisted take-off with rockets (later to be decoupled); with elevators on front; elevators on back; with and without elevons; tried placing flaps; engines on top, bottom, wings; tailgraders and tricycle landing gears; NOTHING WORKED.

Now, I know how an aircraft works in theory, I know about Lift, weight, drag, Thrust, CoM, CoL, CoT and how each must be positioned (Though I don't know how to build a craft with engine on top, should my CoT point dowards towards the CoM?) - I just wanted a design that would work having only the aviation node unlocked and all of the previous (counting both nodes after the first one in the start).
I can try finding my screenshots and placing here so maybe you guys can tell me what's wrong in my designs (if xbox live don't take too long processing it and making it public).

I've also read a thread made by someone with a similiar (if not exact like) title as mine, from January, but none of the designs in the replies worked for me (some I didn't even have the parts unlocked)

Anyway, I guess this is it, sorry for the long thread, I'm just trying to give the more details possible, and thanks if you read it.

Fly safe and may Scot's wisdom be with you!
 

[Snark]

Screenshot would definitely help, though admittedly I've never played on a console and don't know how that works.

Aside from getting a screenshot:  Can you please be specific about what exactly you mean by "doesn't work"?  Engine won't come on?  Landing gear glued to ground?  Stays on ground?  Spins out of control on ground?  Works fine on ground but spins out of control in air?  Keeps wanting to pitch down?  Keeps wanting to pitch up?  And so forth.

There are many, many ways for a plane to "not work", and the answer for how to fix it completely depends on which problem it is.

[Arch3rAc3]

Sorry for not being more specific, as for the screenshots, I'll try posting as soon as they show up online.

For "not work" I mean wobbling all over the place on runway, crashing and going boom. Sometimes not moving at all or going reverse even with engine on, max thrust and brakes off (as if the wheel was stuck in the ground). But the biggest problem is the wobbling, when they go past 30m/s the plane will just go crazy or roll because of the terrain. I feel like, most of the times, I don't have speed or airflow sufficient to takeoff, and if I try getting faster the craft will just go more and more unstable until it crashes.

 

[Ferrius]

Make sure you have S.A.S. turned on, and check if the center of mass and the center of lift are close during the construction phase.

[Arch3rAc3]

Just now, Ferrius said:

Make sure you have S.A.S. turned on, and check if the center of mass and the center of lift are close during the construction phase. [...]

Thank you. I've been doing tests with and without S.A.S, sometimes, depending on the aircraft design, I felt like SAS was making the craft more unstable while trying to correct it on the ground, but I'm yet to test a takeoff with the Control Torque turned off, so I won't be wobbling it around as much when trying to move the landing gear only.

And thanks for the picture, although I've read it a while back already, I'll try creating another plane with the guide on my side now.

 

(Still waiting for the screenshots to be available, I don't know why KSP DVR recording and screenshots aren't going public in the Xbox).

[Arch3rAc3]

http://imgur.com/5ONPBTs (Idk why I can't post the picture here, it didn't work)

Ok. I had to go Old School here taking a photo with my phone because Xbox Live is being weird.

Anyway, on this design I've set the canard wings (actually Tail Fins because it lacks technology) to act only as elevators. Then the Elevons on the wings as Ailerons, and the Tail Fin on the Tail as Rudder.
Do you guys see any major flaws in this design? Also, where and how should I place the landing gears?

Edited July 18, 2016 by Arch3rAc3

[kBob]

Yikes try something simple at first like this:

To paste a photo directly use the link that starts with the i.imagur  (says direct link) and just paste into your post.

Anyway I did another version of this with the landing gear all on fuselage (but still need six) and it works fine too.  You can look at the craft file if you want here.  This only uses tier 4 parts and is <30 parts total.  Note there is a small reaction wheel in the service bay and right click on it and chose SAS only.

 

Ok here is another version:

You can't see it but there is another pair of gear attached to the fuselage under the wings.  I find you don't have wheel problems with six gear on this sized plane.  Also make sure your gear are really on straight.  Turn on SAS and it's quite stable needing little trim. 

Finally that early runway is crap.  While you can certainly use it if you want you may find better results landing and taking off from the nearby fields.  Also both the planes can land on the water and taxi (can't take off but you can taxi onto land to take off again).

[Arch3rAc3]

Thanks. I'll try your design (although I'll have to build it by looking at the pictures since I can't copy the .craft file to my xbox game folder - but I believe it's possible)

And these 6 gears might fix the problem I'm having with wheel stressing. Most of my crashes are happening because the lading gear gets destroyed for no reason.

I tried taking off from the grass field nearby but the plane can barely accelerate there, seems like I'm on real grass xD.

[Arch3rAc3]

Awkward, I can't change the Damper and Spring values for my landing gear here. I can only change the friction values.

[Arch3rAc3]

Tried building it but no joy. I can't steer it without the Reaction Wheels torque (which are too sensible, a small touch makes the plane turn violently in the ground). And whenever I try pitching it my speed goes down as if I was braking.

Idk, I'm about to give up of this. Back in PC my planes worked, over here it's super unstable.

[kBob]

I didn't change any of the landing gear parameters.  It's unfortunate the console version doesn't include a craft file exchange, maybe in a future version as that would seem like a basic feature (maybe when they add multiplayer), but thought I'd put there if you weren't sure of some part . 

It took me a few hours and some research to get my first plane flying so don't get discouraged.  Also the V tail of this plane is because a straight vertical fin does weird things to the aerodynamic overlay when using that angled tail piece, but it's very stable.  

I turned off roll on the control surfaces because it was too easy to roll it over (though it flies upside down fine).  But I don't have a joystick connected right now and doing coordinated turns on the keyboard is a pain, with the Xbox controller it may be easier and you may want to play with the elevon and tail fin controls to find the right settings for controller flight.

Also to land just slow down to under 50m/s and glide down onto the ground, you can flare it at the last moment (under 1m to ground) but don't really need to, that large wing area lets it glide nicely.

[Arch3rAc3]

Just now, kBob said:

I didn't change any of the landing gear parameters.  It's unfortunate the console version doesn't include a craft file exchange, maybe in a future version as that would seem like a basic feature (maybe when they add multiplayer), but thought I'd put there if you weren't sure of some part . 

It took me a few hours and some research to get my first plane flying so don't get discouraged.  Also the V tail of this plane is because a straight vertical fin does weird things to the aerodynamic overlay when using that angled tail piece, but it's very stable.  

I turned off roll on the control surfaces because it was too easy to roll it over (though it flies upside down fine).  But I don't have a joystick connected right now and doing coordinated turns on the keyboard is a pain, with the Xbox controller it may be easier and you may want to play with the elevon and tail fin controls to find the right settings for controller flight.

Also to land just slow down to under 50m/s and glide down onto the ground, you can flare it at the last moment (under 1m to ground) but don't really need to, that large wing area lets it glide nicely.

And how do you steer since there are only fixed landing gears?:

[Hodari]

Well, if you can't get your plane to fly, you can always FLAP

[kBob]

3 minutes ago, Arch3rAc3 said:

And how do you steer since there are only fixed landing gears?:

Turn on SAS.  Don't forget that reaction wheel it's important.  Also take off fast just go immediately to full throttle it should stay pretty straight just pull the nose up a bit and it will take off pretty fast.

Edited July 19, 2016 by kBob

[Arch3rAc3]

I believe I'll have to try FLAP xD (Although my last two Rocket-Assisted launches didn't go past the launch part)

[bewing]

Just for future reference, if you ever should want to tinker with basic jet designs again, here's my most basic jet:

In this design, the fuel tank is started out only half full.

And the dirt runway is an intelligence test. If you try to take off from it, you've failed the test. Use the grass.

Edited July 19, 2016 by bewing

[kBob]

41 minutes ago, Arch3rAc3 said:

I believe I'll have to try FLAP xD (Although my last two Rocket-Assisted launches didn't go past the launch part)

I tried putting some rocket boosters on my plane, it was fun but not practical (but I did get it to spin in place, nose to tail, for longer than I would have thought possible).

[Arch3rAc3]

Just now, kBob said:

I tried putting some rocket boosters on my plane, it was fun but not practical (but I did get it to spin in place, nose to tail, for longer than I would have thought possible).

LOL. It just happened to me. I have no idea where can I put that rocket. Everytime I place a rocket or engine on top or bottom of my plane (even if I use the rotation tool to point it closer to the CoM) it just spins in place.

[Arch3rAc3]

Btw, on observation missions there's the floating marker in Map View, should I be able to lock on it so I can see it on my NavBall? Because I remember that back in the PC I could target them, but over here even when I click on it nothing happens, a blank menu/window pops up on it but with nothing to click or select.

 

[kBob]

On PC you right click on it, don't know what the console equivalent might be.  I saw someone else having problems, but it seemed like they could target in map view but when they switched back to external view nothing showed on the navball (that was on a PS4).  I suggested they try IVA view as on the PC I sometimes find it doesn't show in external view navball but always does in IVA view, don't know if helped.

[bewing]

Blank?!? Noooo. That's a bad bug. It's supposed to say "Activate Navigation". With a button.

And there is no "FLAP" like danny2462's flap: 

 

Edited July 19, 2016 by bewing

[Arch3rAc3]

LOL, that mating dance at the end xD - I died on "The male Wing has noticed us!".

[Arch3rAc3]

Just now, bewing said:

Just for future reference, if you ever should want to tinker with basic jet designs again, here's my most basic jet:

In this design, the fuel tank is started out only half full.

And the dirt runway is an intelligence test. If you try to take off from it, you've failed the test. Use the grass.

I'm trying this design, but for some reason the static landing gears get stuck into the ground and start jumping when the craft is put on the runway, not allowing me even to start moving.

[bewing]

1 minute ago, Arch3rAc3 said:

I'm trying this design, but for some reason the static landing gears get stuck into the ground and start jumping when the craft is put on the runway, not allowing me even to start moving.

Just the static ones at the rear? Did you do anything special to "clip" them when you attached them to the bottom sides of the wings? Or did you just stick them on -- just sticking them on should have worked.

(And did you remove half the fuel from the fuel tank?)

[Arch3rAc3]

Just now, bewing said:

Just the static ones at the rear? Did you do anything special to "clip" them when you attached them to the bottom sides of the wings? Or did you just stick them on -- just sticking them on should have worked.

(And did you remove half the fuel from the fuel tank?)

Just attached them. Tried two times, once with the fuel tank full and once with the fuel tank on half, no joy.

This seems to happen everytime I attach a landing gear to an aerodynamic part. I even tried using the Launch Stability Enhancer to make the craft start a bit over the ground and then release it before turning on the engines, but everytime the wheels get in contact with the ground this happens. They like clip into the ground and stay jumping in place. I can try filming it with my phone (since xbox live isn't helping) and sending you the link if you wish,