Turbine for electrical generation?

[Wjolcz]

1 minute ago, THX1138 said:

I want to send some probes into Jool and have them radio back the science data and it requires a lot of energy. The atmosphere analyser data in particular requires a lot energy.

Then perhaps you should use RTGs or batteries or both?

[Tyko]

On 7/26/2016 at 0:37 AM, mattinoz said:

Still an engine that converts drag to electric charge would be useful.

If stock air intakes' drag profile changes when they're retracted you could probably mod one to produce EC when it's extended. That would do a pretty good job of acting like a RAT. I'm not sure if/how you could get it to only work when you're moving though. It might generate EC even when you're sitting still.

[THX1138]

33 minutes ago, Veeltch said:

Then perhaps you should use RTGs or batteries or both?

LFO and fuel cells deliver energy quicker than RTGs so it will have to be a combination of batteries and LFO and fuel cells. RTGs are way too expensive to be used like this too!

[mattinoz]

2 hours ago, tjt said:

If stock air intakes' drag profile changes when they're retracted you could probably mod one to produce EC when it's extended. That would do a pretty good job of acting like a RAT. I'm not sure if/how you could get it to only work when you're moving though. It might generate EC even when you're sitting still.

I would think in "code"* you try and look at IntakeAir that is being generated and tie the EC produced directly to that. That way it accounts for Intakes being open or closed, moving and air density with out redoing the work the part is already doing.

*says the guy who has never made a codedMod in KSP.

[Van Disaster]

This would work for most resources:

+PART[ramAirIntake]:FOR[DLTD]
{
	@name = ramAirIntakeEC
	@title = RAM Air turbogenerator
	
	@MODULE[ModuleResourceIntake]
	{
		@resourceName = ElectricCharge
		@checkForOxygen = false
		@intakeSpeed = 0
	}
	@RESOURCE[IntakeAir]
	{
		@name = ElectricCharge
	}
}

But: ElectricCharge has no density, so there's an infinite supply ( well, I think that's why it doesn't do what we want ).

So the next idea would be to use ModuleResourceConverter with the AlwaysActive flag - this has the advantage of capping output, just like a real wind turbine. Needs a *lot* of fiddling but the basic idea would be this:

+RESOURCE_DEFINITION[IntakeAir]:FOR[DLTD]
{
	@name = IntakeEC
}

+PART[ramAirIntake]:FOR[DLTD]
{
	@name = ramAirIntakeEC
	@title = RAM Air turbogenerator

	
	@MODULE[ModuleResourceIntake]
	{
		@resourceName = IntakeEC
		@checkForOxygen = false
		@intakeSpeed = 0		
	}
	@RESOURCE[IntakeAir]
	{
		@name = IntakeEC
	}	
	
	MODULE 
	{
		name = ModuleResourceConverter
		AlwaysActive = true
		GeneratesHeat = false
		UseSpecialistBonus = false
		INPUT_RESOURCE
		{
			ResourceName = IntakeEC
			Ratio = 90
		}
		OUTPUT_RESOURCE
		{
			ResourceName = ElectricCharge
			Ratio = 8
		}
	}
}

I created a new resource so it wouldn't grab resources from other intakes.

[Joonatan1998]

14 minutes ago, Van Disaster said:

This would work for most resources:

But: ElectricCharge has no density, so there's an infinite supply ( well, I think that's why it doesn't do what we want ).

So the next idea would be to use ModuleResourceConverter with the AlwaysActive flag - this has the advantage of capping output, just like a real wind turbine. Needs a *lot* of fiddling but the basic idea would be this:

I created a new resource so it wouldn't grab resources from other intakes.

I wonder how badly the game would break if you gave electric charge an extremely tiny mass.

It would solve many problems with modules that assume resources have mass, and could teoretically be realistic if you could set the mass low enough. (E=mc^2)

 

[Azimech]

2 hours ago, Van Disaster said:

This would work for most resources:

+PART[ramAirIntake]:FOR[DLTD]
{
	@name = ramAirIntakeEC
	@title = RAM Air turbogenerator
	
	@MODULE[ModuleResourceIntake]
	{
		@resourceName = ElectricCharge
		@checkForOxygen = false
		@intakeSpeed = 0
	}
	@RESOURCE[IntakeAir]
	{
		@name = ElectricCharge
	}
}

But: ElectricCharge has no density, so there's an infinite supply ( well, I think that's why it doesn't do what we want ).

So the next idea would be to use ModuleResourceConverter with the AlwaysActive flag - this has the advantage of capping output, just like a real wind turbine. Needs a *lot* of fiddling but the basic idea would be this:

+RESOURCE_DEFINITION[IntakeAir]:FOR[DLTD]
{
	@name = IntakeEC
}

+PART[ramAirIntake]:FOR[DLTD]
{
	@name = ramAirIntakeEC
	@title = RAM Air turbogenerator

	
	@MODULE[ModuleResourceIntake]
	{
		@resourceName = IntakeEC
		@checkForOxygen = false
		@intakeSpeed = 0		
	}
	@RESOURCE[IntakeAir]
	{
		@name = IntakeEC
	}	
	
	MODULE 
	{
		name = ModuleResourceConverter
		AlwaysActive = true
		GeneratesHeat = false
		UseSpecialistBonus = false
		INPUT_RESOURCE
		{
			ResourceName = IntakeEC
			Ratio = 90
		}
		OUTPUT_RESOURCE
		{
			ResourceName = ElectricCharge
			Ratio = 8
		}
	}
}

I created a new resource so it wouldn't grab resources from other intakes.

 

AlwaysActive ... you have NO idea how happy I am to know this exists!

2 hours ago, Joonatan1998 said:

I wonder how badly the game would break if you gave electric charge an extremely tiny mass.

It would solve many problems with modules that assume resources have mass, and could teoretically be realistic if you could set the mass low enough. (E=mc^2)

 

What modules assume resources have mass except ModuleResourceIntake?

[John FX]

On 25/07/2016 at 8:02 PM, Alshain said:

From a realism standpoint, you wouldn't use small scale wind power on Duna.  The planet is a Mars analog and that is all dirt and sand.  The complication of small scale wind turbines is that it works with moving parts, parts which clog with dirt and dust.  Of course solar panels face the same issue, however Spirit and Opportunity have been able to use the wind to clean the panels, something that wouldn't really be possible with a clogged turbine.

Large turbines we use on Earth are less susceptible to small grains of sand.  Their blades are large enough and strong enough to soldier on and break up potential clogs in most cases.  Though they still require maintenance.

People frequently request an electric propeller for Duna here on the forums, and this reasoning is why I question that would be a wise choice for Squad to make.  It's just unrealistic to be effective.  KSP has always been an extension of real world or even potential real world space exploration, there really is no potential for wind turbines or electric propellers on Mars, therefore we don't need them on Duna.

From what you have said it is just a lifespan issue, if you only wanted or needed to fly for up to a day they might be OK.

[Van Disaster]

54 minutes ago, Azimech said:

AlwaysActive ... you have NO idea how happy I am to know this exists!

Back in 0.25 I was using regolith converters to mix IntakeAtm & Oxidizer so I could use piston aero engines on Eve ( this is a realistic prospect, we've been doing this in submarines since WW2 ) - having to start the things up manually every time drove me so mad I put a request in for that flag... and eventually it arrived

Problem with propellors on Mars would be the same as using a wind turbine, simple mass flow - the atmosphere's too thin for a sane size propellor to do any real work. Ground level on Mars is about equivalent to 115,000 feet on Earth ( 35km or so ). Maybe if you had a fairly large multi-stage ducted fan, but I'd hate to think of the power consumption...

Edited July 28, 2016 by Van Disaster

[Azimech]

44 minutes ago, Van Disaster said:

Back in 0.25 I was using regolith converters to mix IntakeAtm & Oxidizer so I could use piston aero engines on Eve ( this is a realistic prospect, we've been doing this in submarines since WW2 ) - having to start the things up manually every time drove me so mad I put a request in for that flag... and eventually it arrived

Problem with propellors on Mars would be the same as using a wind turbine, simple mass flow - the atmosphere's too thin for a sane size propellor to do any real work. Ground level on Mars is about equivalent to 115,000 feet on Earth ( 35km or so ). Maybe if you had a fairly large multi-stage ducted fan, but I'd hate to think of the power consumption...

Thank you for your request and the fruit it bears. I used ModuleEnginesFX and ModuleResourceConverter to program an ignition system for my piston engines mod. AlwaysActive really makes everyone's life easier once my mod is released. If you're interested, here's the link:

 

[Joonatan1998]

2 hours ago, Azimech said:

 

 

What modules assume resources have mass except ModuleResourceIntake?

Engines?

[Alshain]

3 hours ago, John FX said:

From what you have said it is just a lifespan issue, if you only wanted or needed to fly for up to a day they might be OK.

No, not really a lifespan issue, it's more of a non function issue in this case.  Helicopters and planes can't fly through duststorms (or volcanic ash) because they wouldn't last 5 minutes. Their engines would clog,  Duna is in theory one big dust storm.  I believe that would be no different for a propeller based electric generator.

If it adds gameplay value, my opinion is and always will be that comes before realism.  But if it doesn't add significant gameplay value then we should try to be somewhat realistic, and since we have so many other electric producers that do work just fine, I don't see how this would add a significant gameplay value, and it would be unrealistic anywhere but Kerbin and Laythe.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Alshain

[Azimech]

1 hour ago, Joonatan1998 said:

Engines?

Nope, ModuleEnginesFX doesn't care about resource mass.

[mattinoz]

What about these guys not only would they be more compact for travel and they don't need very large cranes to be built. Just need the cable long enough to get above the worst of the dust. 

Spoiler

I mean if there was wind or dust in KSP.

 

[Joonatan1998]

On 28.7.2016 at 8:00 PM, Azimech said:

Nope, ModuleEnginesFX doesn't care about resource mass.

I thought you couldn't get any thrust if you only used massless resources?

[Azimech]

19 minutes ago, Joonatan1998 said:

I thought you couldn't get any thrust if you only used massless resources?

You can create resources with any specs and adjust ModuleEnginesFX to it.

[Van Disaster]

On 29/07/2016 at 0:15 AM, mattinoz said:

What about these guys not only would they be more compact for travel and they don't need very large cranes to be built. Just need the cable long enough to get above the worst of the dust. 

  Reveal hidden contents

I mean if there was wind or dust in KSP.

 

It'd need to be *huge* to be at all useful on Duna. Would be ok on Eve or Laythe or gas giants.