Looks like the Google Lunar X-Prize is actually going to happen!

[Streetwind]

One of the participants of the Google Lunar X-Prize, a company called Moon Express, just got regulatory approval for their mission. This has two very significant meanings:

 

First, it means that all that's left for them to do now is in their own hands. The launch contract is signed and verified by the X-Prize foundation, they have official permission in accordance with international law to put a spacecraft onto the lunar surface, and they have the mission plan and partner support needed to pull it off. Now all that remains is actually finishing the spacecraft, launching it, and getting it down on the Moon by December 31st, 2017. No other participant of the X-Prize is this far along. They all still have regulatory hurdles to overcome, and most of them don't even have a launch contract yet. Up until now, it wasn't guaranteed that any participant would get to launch at all. But now it is. Private, commercial lunar landings - it's gonna happen!

(Moon Express will launch on Rocket Lab's Electron rocket. Which hasn't flown yet, but is planning its first test flight very soon, pending the wrap-up of the construction of the launch site in New Zealand. Electron is theoretically capable of pushing roughly 10 kg's of mass to lunar surface, so the Moon Express lander will be sized something like a hypothetical 9U cubesat.)

 

Second, this regulatory approval is a unique historical precedent. No non-government entity has ever before been given permission to touch the lunar surface... and not because governments are jealous, but because something like this is unheard of. Being well outside what's considered Earth orbit, the Moon is the first destination in the grand area called 'outer space'. And as such, any activities there are subject to the Outer Space Treaty. Which, among other things, demands that any signing nation polices the activities of its residents in outer space. Specifically, these activities must be officially authorized, and then they must be continually supervised. Moon Express is a US company, and the United States have ratified the Outer Space Treaty, so it applies to them. But... how does the US government authorize and supervise Moon Express during its mission? Nothing like that has ever happened. There are no protocolls, no processes, no agencies tasked or equipped for such a thing!

Which is precisely why this is so important. On one hand, it established a precedent that future requests like this can refer to. Though the Federal Aviation Administration is a little bit out of their league here, they agreed for now to oversee this process on a case-by-case basis, since they are getting more and more involved with spaceflight-related activities anyway. (Traditionally, the FAA oversees civil aviation, not spaceflight, and started working on space mostly because they need to clear airspace during launches.) On the other hand, it impressed on the US government the need to formally establish processes, which they have now started to talk about in earnest. This is a good thing, because it will remove a lot insecurity around commercial ventures in outer space. One party who should be particularly pleased by this outcome is SpaceX, as they are also planning a commercial outer space mission out of the US in the near future (Red Dragon, aiming for 2018). But pretty much anyone wanting to do business on or around the Moon, near-Earth asteroids or even Mars is affected. This includes names like ULA, Masten Space Systems, Planetary Resources and Deep Space Industries, and more... as well as of course all the other US-based Google Lunar X-Prize teams.

And it even looks like the FAA might officially get the job in the end. Who knows, maybe the agency will be renamed to Federal Aerospace Adminsitration in the future?

[CSE]

If the launch site is to be in New Zealand, won't it be the NZ government's responsibility under the Outer Space Treaty, and thus probably their official supervision?

Plus, while I wish them the very best of luck, a near-term target date and a launch vehicle that has not yet flown is a particularly ambitious combination.

[Streetwind]

6 minutes ago, CSE said:

If the launch site is to be in New Zealand, won't it be the NZ government's responsibility under the Outer Space Treaty, and thus probably their official supervision?

It's complicated. For starters, Moon Express was the entity that got permission here, and they are only building the payload, not the launcher. So what the rocket does or where it launches from is not that relevant to them.

As for Rocket Lab, the company is originating from New Zealand, which has also ratified the Outer Space Treaty, so you would be correct. However, what's important is the company structure. An in that sense, Rocket Lab New Zealand is merely a wholly-owned subsidiary of the parent company Rocket Lab USA, which was incorporated in the United States and therefore falls under US law and supervision. I'm pretty sure they specifically set it up that way so that they could benefit from the much more developed space industry and regulation in the United States.

Finally, although the first test flights of the Electron rocket are going to launch from their New Zealand site, it is not guaranteed that the Moon mission also does. Rocket Lab is in talks with NASA about using facilities at Kennedy Space Center as well.

[Kryten]

48 minutes ago, CSE said:

If the launch site is to be in New Zealand, won't it be the NZ government's responsibility under the Outer Space Treaty, and thus probably their official supervision?

The Outer Space Treaty assigns responsibility to the state the Space Vehicle is registered to, which in this case would be the US.

[Shpaget]

So, do they have any hardware to show us?

[Streetwind]

I have not seen any, personally. But I've not really tried looking either...

[Scotius]

Another private company wants to start launching from Kennedy? Looks like this place slowly becomes a hub and Nr. 1 commercial spaceport on Earth. I wonder why ESA isn't trying to grab a piece of cake for themselves? Kourou is better positioned geographically. If ESA can transport Arianes and Vegas by ship, other companies could do the same.

[Findthepin1]

Wait. Why did they have to get permission from anyone to land something on the Moon? Nobody owns the Moon, there's no authority to ask. Is it just a matter of checking with other organizations to avoid hitting their satellites and stuff?

[Streetwind]

3 minutes ago, Findthepin1 said:

Wait. Why did they have to get permission from anyone to land something on the Moon? Nobody owns the Moon, there's no authority to ask. Is it just a matter of checking with other organizations to avoid hitting their satellites and stuff?

It's about an international treaty between UN members. I explained it in the OP.

[Kryten]

9 minutes ago, Findthepin1 said:

Wait. Why did they have to get permission from anyone to land something on the Moon? Nobody owns the Moon, there's no authority to ask. Is it just a matter of checking with other organizations to avoid hitting their satellites and stuff?

Quote

Outer Space Treaty Article VI (in part)

States Parties to the Treaty shall bear international responsibility for national activities in outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, whether such activities are carried on by governmental agencies or by non-governmental entities, and for assuring that national activities are carried out in conformity with the provisions set forth in the present Treaty. The activities of non-governmental entities in outer space, including the Moon and other celestial bodies, shall require authorization and continuing supervision by the appropriate State Party to the Treaty.

 

Edited August 4, 2016 by Kryten

[Shpaget]

Or you can just register in and launch from any country that is not signatory to OST, which is garbage anyway.

[Kryten]

15 minutes ago, Shpaget said:

Or you can just register in and launch from any country that is not signatory to OST, which is garbage anyway.

There aren't any UN-recognised countries that haven't signed the OST.

[Shpaget]

There are plenty.

[Kryten]

Er, no. There you've got Western Sahara, which isn't UN-recognised and in practice doesn't operate as a country, Taiwan which had ratified before being kicked out of the UN and still considers itself bound by the treaty, and Greenland which is covered by Denmarks's signature. 

Edited August 4, 2016 by Kryten

[magnemoe]

Will they not use an existing launch provider for this? Might even be possible to be secondary payload on an GTO mission who would reduce the dV for Moon injection a lot,
Looks like everybody is putting stuff into orbit, going to moon require an transfer stage and once at Moon you are home free, its unlikely that you would crash into something valuable unlike in LEO or GEO.
 

[Shpaget]

Are we looking at the same picture?

There's like 50 countries marked in red (non signatories) and 15-ish marked yellow (signatories, but not ratified, so basically the same as non signatories).

[Bill Phil]

31 minutes ago, Kryten said:

Er, no. There you've got Western Sahara, which isn't UN-recognised and in practice doesn't operate as a country, Taiwan which had ratified before being kicked out of the UN and still considers itself bound by the treaty, and Greenland which is covered by Denmarks's signature. 

There's around 190 recognized countries on earth. 104 are parties to the OST, 24 are signatories. 128 is less than 190. There's a few countries which haven't signed it. But they likely don't have the infrastructure to launch anything whatsoever. Or produce anything.

[RainDreamer]

Well, there's always North Korea. They certainly have some capacity to launch (some) stuff, and likely won't care about the OST in anyway. Though I don't think anyone would want to get near that place.

Back to topic though, I really hope the X prize really happen. It would give some excitement back to space. At least amongst people like us.

Edited August 5, 2016 by RainDreamer

[Shpaget]

Everything about this smells of bs.

The Moon Express boasts to have received some inconsequential approval that they try to present as a crucial part of the mission, or as a final piece of paper before they can launch, something they were waiting for and now plans to launch by late 2017. Except, they have no hardware to show us; they don't even show us a design document or tell us exactly what the mission is.
Furthermore, their plan is to use the Electron launch vehicle. Never heard of it? Of course you haven't, it doesn't exist yet. The proposed launch company is a startup that doesn't have a single orbital launch behind them.

Going back to Moon Express, you want to hear the best part? Take a look at this.
Not only they don't have the hardware, they don't even have the mission figured out; they haven't even hired the staff that's supposed to figure that out.

From no mission and no hardware to do it with and no personnel to make it, to the Moon surface in less than 18 months? Moon Express, go home, you're either delusional, or a scam.

[Streetwind]

5 hours ago, RainDreamer said:

Well, there's always North Korea. They certainly have some capacity to launch (some) stuff, and likely won't care about the OST in anyway.

North Korea ratified the Outer Space Treaty in 2009.

 

1 hour ago, Shpaget said:

Everything about this smells of bs.

Shpaget... what happened to you this week, that you must take out on us? This has been a very positive thread before you showed up. People are liking it, other people are asking questions and learning something new from the answers they receive. But every word you've written here so far is oozing with bitterness and resentment. There are so many ways in which you can enter a discussion constructively, even if you aim to bring up counterarguments... and you choose to go "miserable geezer who can't stand to see people happy" on us? That's quite disappointing.

(Also, please brush up on your knowledge of international space policy. This approval is far from "inconsequential", and has implications even beyond the United States.)

Edited August 5, 2016 by Streetwind

[Shpaget]

Nothing happened to me this week and I'm not taking out anything on any of you. I'm pointing out factual flaws and inadequacy in this project by Moon Express. Everything I said about it I followed by the links and arguments. You should not consider it bitterness, resentment or misery. Yes, people like some things, that does not necessarily mean others should, let alone avoid questioning the validity of statement regarding those things.

Yes, I would like to learn more about Moon Express and their endeavor, yet the lack of any technical information prevents me from doing so, which leaves me in the position where I have to question this whole Moon Express thing and whether it is genuine or not. They have received a $1,25 million dollars from Google, and just a year and a half before they have to launch, they still have not shown the public anything. I'm not saying they have to (that's between them and Google), but it would sure answer a lot of questions and address quite a few misgivings I have about them.

So, instead of you saying I sound like a miserable geezer, why don't you try to refute the issues I've brought up about Moon Express in my previous post. Explain the lack of photos of the hardware, why are there no published mission parameters, why are they just now hiring so many essential core personnel, etc.

 

As for the approval and OST, USA has no jurisdiction over Moon. Any approval they give is worthless. What does it even mean? That the US government may choose to take the blame if something goes horribly wrong with the mission and the Moon suffers some irreparable damage, breaks apart and falls on Earth? Yeah. I can give you that approval myself, any day you want.

What implications does this approval have, other than perhaps it leading to every little backwater country jumping on the approval bandwagon and issuing their own little approvals?
We've talked about Outer Space Treaty several times on this forum. It always boils down to it being unenforceable and pointless. It's closer to a guidebook than a law. Please don't leave your trash behind and, pretty please, no guns. It looks like those "no guns allowed" stickers you see on the entrances to banks.
Any individual (who can afford it, obviously) can launch a satellite. Any individual can land whatever he wants on the Moon or any other place, because once you leave Earth there is no space police. There is no space court of law. Trespassers will not get shot.

 

[Bill Phil]

6 hours ago, Shpaget said:

Everything about this smells of bs.

The Moon Express boasts to have received some inconsequential approval that they try to present as a crucial part of the mission, or as a final piece of paper before they can launch, something they were waiting for and now plans to launch by late 2017. Except, they have no hardware to show us; they don't even show us a design document or tell us exactly what the mission is.
Furthermore, their plan is to use the Electron launch vehicle. Never heard of it? Of course you haven't, it doesn't exist yet. The proposed launch company is a startup that doesn't have a single orbital launch behind them.

Going back to Moon Express, you want to hear the best part? Take a look at this.
Not only they don't have the hardware, they don't even have the mission figured out; they haven't even hired the staff that's supposed to figure that out.

From no mission and no hardware to do it with and no personnel to make it, to the Moon surface in less than 18 months? Moon Express, go home, you're either delusional, or a scam.

They are the first commercial company ( or something like that) which has permission to land on the Moon. That's big, since it lets them put their payload on the Moon.

They have no obligation to show the public anything. If and when they launch, they'll probably get it done. 

There have been crash programs that accomplished more in less time.

[Shpaget]

2 hours ago, Bill Phil said:

They are the first commercial company ( or something like that) which has permission to land on the Moon.

They have a permission from someone who does not have the authority to give permission. Such permission is not worth the paper it's written on.

[Kryten]

Given this appears to be the closest thing we have to general GLXP thread, I'll just dump it here. GLXP have officially verified a third launch for the prize, with the prior two being Moon Express' Electron launch and Astrobiotic having part of a rideshare F9 launch. 

The third launch is the launch of Synergy Moon's rover on an Interorbital Systems Neptune-8 rocket in the second half of 2017. Neptune is a modular orbital system built out of simple, pressure-fed storable-propellant stages, similar to the OTRAG concept. Neptune-8 would use eight of these modules and a small upper stage, to produce payload capabilities similar to Electron.

Now comes the rub; Interorbital have been promising Neptune flights within about six months for roughly a decade now. The only time they've flown anything was a test flight out their rocket module, which reached a few thousand feet. That was two years ago, and nothing significant has happened since. Given their past record, the chances of them actually pulling off this launch within the necessary timeframe is miniscule. My best guess for why they received verification despite all this is that GLXP wants to make the thing generally more exciting and to appear more like an actual race.

[Streetwind]

Huh, interesting. I've never even heard of Interorbital before. Though from your description, there might be a good reason for that? Here's hoping they get their act together anyway. The more the merrier in such a competition.

(By the way though, Astrobotic doesn't have a launch contract yet, SpaceIL does. Astrobotic does plan to eventually sign a F9 launch, but they've not yet closed the deal.)

Edited August 31, 2016 by Streetwind