Top Gun AI Revamped

[Alphasus]

I am restarting this, with a few generic rules changes. I'll also be launching the first tournament very soon.

 

Welcome to Top Gun AI, in which you will pit your best fighter designs against another, in a single elimination style tournament. May the best engineer win.

For those who are unfamiliar with Top Gun AI, and haven't seen the other thread yet, the premise is simple; you will build a plane, within a certain point limit, and then the tournament host will draw random seeds, and the designs will fight. Usually, each match is a best of 5.

 

 

All tournaments will be recorded and posted on YouTube, with #TopGunAI in the title.

 

Rules (ALL RULES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE BASED ON THE TOURNAMENT

-No mods. (Except for BDarmory and B9 Aerospace)

-Fights are 1v1

-Fights are best of 5

-The last flying aircraft wins. If both are destroyed in the sky, the round is considered a draw.

-100 parts at most

-REACTION WHEELS ARE ALSO NOT ALLOWED.

-All designs must be withing the point limit, which is stated below.

-All turrets MUST be fixed forward

-One entry per tournament, unless stated otherwise.

-No clipping fuel tanks or engines. They can be slightly clipped for looks, but not completely inside each other. Structural parts and ammo, guns, gear, etc. Is ok. Wings are OK as long as you're not putting all your wings inside the plane.

 

Point System

 

60 point limit

-AIM-9 - 5 Points

-AIM-120 - 4 Points

-All other missiles - 4 points

-Chaff - 2 Points

-Flares- 3 Points

-Ammo Can - 4 points (all types)

-.50 cal turret - 4 points

-GAU 8 30mm - 14 points

-M230 - 6 points

-Vulcan Hidden - 6 points

-Vulcan Turret - 8 points

-ECM Jammer - 20 points

-Goalkeeper - Banned

-Abrams Cannon - Banned

-M102 - Banned

-Millennium Cannon - Banned

ABL Laser - Banned

 

The points are also subject to change based on tournament rules, and if we notice trends in designs. (Countermeasure spam, etc.)

 

Setting up matches

 

If you are not already aware, BDarmory has an AI system, that is able to fly and fight planes. (As well as ground vehicles, but that is not our concern)

To set up the match, all planes will be VesselMover'd into position, and then the host will quicksave, and start the match.

 

 

PLEASE KEEP ALL NON- TOURNAMENT RELATED DISCUSSION ON THE DISCUSSION THREAD. THIS THREAD IS MEANT FOR TOURNAMENTS, AND TOURNAMENTS ONLY.

 

http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/threads/129182-Gauging-interest-stock-BD-Armory-dogfighters-AI-tournament

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPyRv7XclIA-KIWR5VzrbBw/videos

Also, t3hJimmer has lots of nice videos of matches on his channel. Be sure to check them out to see what Top Gun AI is like!

 

And lastly, have fun, and see you in the skies!

 

Edited August 6, 2016 by Alphasus

[Alphasus]

And the first tournament to commemorate the new thread...

AlphaTourney 3

Stealth Within Visual Range Combat

Bracket Link

 

Rules

-No mods(Except for BDarmory and B9 Aerospace(Core), as well as UI mods).

-Fights are 1v1

-Fights are best of 5

-The last flying aircraft wins. If both are destroyed in the sky, the round is considered a draw.

-100 parts at most per plane

-REACTION WHEELS ARE NOT ALLOWED.

-All designs must be withing the point limit, which is stated below.

-All turrets MUST be fixed forward

-One entry per tournament, unless stated otherwise.

-No clipping fuel tanks or engines. They can be slightly clipped for looks, but not completely inside each other. Structural parts and ammo, guns, gear, etc. Is ok. Wings are OK as long as you're not putting all your wings inside the plane.

-PM me your entries... unless you want them to be tested against and potentially countered by those on this thread.

-No weapons externally on a craft(except for Vulcan Hiddens, GAU-8s, and 50 cal. turrets).

-Each craft must have a DRY flight time of greater than 30 mins according to Kerbal Engineer Redux.

-All planes will have the same AI altitude settings.

-Radomes are required.

-All AI altitudes will be standardized to the default values.

-All other AI modifiers will be set by the creator of craft.

-All guard mode settings except for firing interval must not be changed.

-ANY crashes into the ground causing functional damage on takeoff will not have the match restarted. That includes(but isn't limited to)damage to wings and engines.

-If 2 planes die within 5 seconds of each other, the round will be called a tie. Death is considered disappearance on Vessel Switcher.

Point System

 

40 point limit

-AIM-9 - 6 Points

-AIM-120 - 6 Points

-All other missiles - 4 points

-Chaff - 2 points

-Flares- 2 points

-Ammo Can - 4 points (all types)

-.50 cal turret - 2 points

-GAU 8 30mm - 10 points

-M230 - 6 points

-Vulcan Hidden -4 points

-Vulcan Turret - 4 points

-ECM Jammer - 15 points

-Goalkeeper - Banned

-Abrams Cannon - Banned

-M102 - Banned

-Millennium Cannon - Banned

ABL Laser - Banned

 

Edited August 10, 2016 by Alphasus
Specific tournament rules changed, changed countermeasure cost so that they are usable, and changed gun cost so that they are actually able to fit on an aircraft.

[GDJ]

Can I recommend Aviator Arsenal as a potential addition to the allowed mods? The AI antenna is pretty slick (both AI pilot and weapons manager in one package. Keeps part counts lower).

[Alphasus]

10 minutes ago, GDJ said:

Can I recommend Aviator Arsenal as a potential addition to the allowed mods? The AI antenna is pretty slick (both AI pilot and weapons manager in one package. Keeps part counts lower).

If it is updated for 1.1.3, then yes. Otherwise I cannot guarantee functionality, but part count wise, it would be convenient. If it works, then I guess people can use it. I'll have it in my mods folder regardless(if it is compatible).

Edited August 5, 2016 by Alphasus

[qzgy]

So...... hosts?

[Alphasus]

Just now, qzgy said:

So...... hosts?

Oh, I can host now. RocketTurtle couldn't before because he was very busy. I shouldn't be.

[qzgy]

Ok.

[Alphasus]

Also, there are no restrictions on probes at all. You can use them, I won't care. But, radomes are required.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Alphasus

[Papa_Joe]

Awesome.   Glad to see this come back!

[Alphasus]

1 minute ago, Papa_Joe said:

Awesome.   Glad to see this come back!

Thank you very much for updating the 2 core mods used in this tournament: BDArmory and VesselMover.

[Papa_Joe]

Just now, Alphasus said:

Thank you very much for updating the 2 core mods used in this tournament: BDArmory and VesselMover.

I will accept those thanks on behalf of the whole BDA team... They made it happen!  

Have fun with the tournament, and I expect to see Github bug reports come out of it!  

[GDJ]

1 hour ago, Alphasus said:

If it is updated for 1.1.3, then yes. Otherwise I cannot guarantee functionality, but part count wise, it would be convenient. If it works, then I guess people can use it. I'll have it in my mods folder regardless(if it is compatible).

It does work well. In ASC III the AI worked flawless, as well as the weapons in that mod for KSP 1.1.2 and KSP 1.1.3.

[DoctorDavinci]

1 minute ago, GDJ said:

It does work well. In ASC III the AI worked flawless, as well as the weapons in that mod for KSP 1.1.2 and KSP 1.1.3.

I can confirm that AA worked just fine with BDA in the past and expect that it should work just fine with our latest build, however I suggest testing it prior to adding it to the mod list

 

[Alphasus]

1 minute ago, DoctorDavinci said:

I can confirm that AA worked just fine with BDA in the past and expect that it should work just fine with our latest build, however I suggest testing it prior to adding it to the mod list

 

It will definitely be considered then. But I'll be banning its weapons until I can see how balanced they are vs normal BDA stuff.

[DoctorDavinci]

Just now, Alphasus said:

It will definitely be considered then. But I'll be banning its weapons until I can see how balanced they are vs normal BDA stuff.

Actually the weapons are very well balanced, @tetryds put a lot of time and effort into keeping the AA weapons balanced and historically accurate

[Alphasus]

17 minutes ago, DoctorDavinci said:

Actually the weapons are very well balanced, @tetryds put a lot of time and effort into keeping the AA weapons balanced and historically accurate

Oh I acknowledge that, but I can't tell how many points they should be worth, and if they even fit with the stealth theme in the first place. It requires balancing on my part because I'm comparing them to the far superior 20mm Vulcans and need a point value for them. I don't doubt that they are very well balanced within the mod, independent from the modern BDA weapons.

44 minutes ago, Papa_Joe said:

I will accept those thanks on behalf of the whole BDA team... They made it happen!  

Have fun with the tournament, and I expect to see Github bug reports come out of it!  

Thanks to the whole team for reviving the mod. I'll try to get some bug reports out if anything happens.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Alphasus

[DoctorDavinci]

14 minutes ago, Alphasus said:

Oh I acknowledge that, but I can't tell how many points they should be worth, and if they even fit with the stealth theme in the first place. It requires balancing on my part because I'm comparing them to the far superior 20mm Vulcans and need a point value for them. I don't doubt that they are very well balanced within the mod, independent from the modern BDA weapons.

I see what you mean

Just to clarify something about using AA ... It probably will work, however it technically has not been updated to 1.1.3 and will likely not be updated until BDAc is confirmed to be stable en mass. This being said, AA's current status should be considered 'USE AT YOUR OWN RISK'

Edited August 5, 2016 by DoctorDavinci

[Alphasus]

17 minutes ago, DoctorDavinci said:

I see what you mean

Just to clarify something about using AA ... It probably will work, however it technically has not been updated to 1.1.3 and will likely not be updated until BDAc is confirmed to be stable en mass. This being said, AA's current status should be considered 'USE AT YOUR OWN RISK'

Then I won't use it until after this tournament. 1 extra part doesn't bother me too much with just 2 planes.

[Adelaar]

I like this challenge, and might take it on, I just have a few concerns regarding the rules. First of all, I should place the use of probes into the points system, since they are far lighter (and more importantly, smaller) for the same functionality. Kerballed craft will probably be outgunned by a similar probe aircraft, since it's lighter and a smaller target.

Second, I have a few suggestion regarding the points system. I've battled myself quite often (with approx 15 different jets), and have come to the conclusion that the AIM-120 is stupidly powerful, the AIM-6 is underwhelming, and so forth. So I suggest the following:

1. Limit the use of Chaff and Flares by an absolute number or increase points.

2. increase the points price of the AIM-120. Or just ban it outright; I've seen aircraft be constantly and almost always be obliterated by it, or almost always miss. How and why are unknown to me, because I always set a chaff/flare limit on my aircraft..

Edited August 6, 2016 by Adelaar

[Alphasus]

3 hours ago, Adelaar said:

I like this challenge, and might take it on, I just have a few concerns regarding the rules. First of all, I should place the use of probes into the points system, since they are far lighter (and more importantly, smaller) for the same functionality. Kerballed craft will probably be outgunned by a similar probe aircraft, since it's lighter and a smaller target.

Second, I have a few suggestion regarding the points system. I've battled myself quite often (with approx 15 different jets), and have come to the conclusion that the AIM-120 is stupidly powerful, the AIM-6 is underwhelming, and so forth. So I suggest the following:

1. Limit the use of Chaff and Flares by an absolute number or increase points.

2. increase the points price of the AIM-120. Or just ban it outright; I've seen aircraft be constantly and almost always be obliterated by it, or almost always miss. How and why are unknown to me, because I always set a chaff/flare limit on my aircraft..

Probe technology is more than likely the future of fighter combat. I allow it here specifically because it promotes realism in the tournament(no way can an organic pilot survive prolonged 15G in a 5th gen fighter). A kerballed fighter will not be changed in terms of AI settings at all, but the goal was somewhat to phase out manned aircraft and see how designs diverged from previous designs.

1. Chaff and flares have already been increased from previous tournaments. I made a prediction that AIM-9s would be used more than AIM-120s because of space constraints and combat ranges, so I made the determination that flares should cost more, since they would be needed more. With a properly armed craft(if it has guns), you can have about 3 AIM-120s and a vulcan,or 2 AIM-9s, 1 AIM-120 and a vulcan. That leaves you at 28 points on config 1, and 40 points on config 2. After considering your first point and second point, I will be decreasing the point value of AIM-9s(buffing them rather than nerfing AIM-120s) since the point allowance is so low. I will also make all countermeasures cost 3 points(to account for the AIM-9 changes).

2.All combat in this tournament happens within visual range. I have drawn opposite conclusions to you in my time participating in these tournaments. The AIM-9 also has an advantage because you can fit many more into a cargo bay, meaning that a plane can be smaller to hit the 30 mins dry flight time requirement. Since AIM-120s only try to shoot you at long ranges, but are hard to evade, AIM-9s have a higher point value specifically because they turn better and are more likely to stay on you if your countermeasures are misplaced. At the ranges this occurs at(0-5 km), in my experience, AIM-120s have had no tangible advantage(especially considering the simple fact that they need 4m of cargo bay to stay stealth, but an AIM-9 needs 2-3m of cargo bay. And, since stealth is a requirement, it is a hazard to have lots of missiles in a plane, if not simply very difficult.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Alphasus

[Alphasus]

OK so, in the case that you didn't get the edits I made to the point values, all guns cost less, and countermeasures(and missiles) cost less too. Effectively, this means that more gun fights should occur, more missiles can be used, and more countermeasures should be in play.

[Alphasus]

I think I found a bug in BDArmory rotary racks, and until fixed, they are unusable. In effect, AI will not use rotary racks to engage other crafts, meaning that you will have to devise your own ways of holding missiles. The is a problem in B9 and stock cargo bays.

[something]

Been playing combat sims since the mid 90s. Might give this a try once I succeed coming up with something that actually works...

 

Oh, and linking the required mods might be an idea...

[GDJ]

Well, I built a stealth-style plane and I can honestly say it's a different form of warfare. So far my A-7 style plane (no missiles, ECM jammer, 2 Hidden Vulcans, chaff and flares) can trounce the Stealth plane 3 to 1. The Stealth plane I built is far faster (two engines) and likes missiles, but it also has 2 hidden vulcans, full radar (hidden in bomb bay), ECM and chaff/flares and it tends to shoot and turns to evade and hits mach 2. If the A-7 gets within 2 km it's game over for the Stealth. Stealth planes are so far rather heavy for evasive tight maneuvers, while a plane made for the previous tournaments zips in, dodges a couple of missiles, and turns the opponent into copper jacketed swiss cheese in short order.

This might be a long battle between Stealth-style fighter/bombers. They tend to favour having large amounts of distance between them and dogfights will be rather short (basically who can line up the guns first).

Edited August 7, 2016 by GDJ

[Alphasus]

4 hours ago, something said:

Been playing combat sims since the mid 90s. Might give this a try once I succeed coming up with something that actually works...

 

Oh, and linking the required mods might be an idea...

Sure. Sorry about that.

https://github.com/blowfishpro/B9-Aerospace/releases/download/v6.1.2/B9_Aerospace_6-1-2.zip

https://github.com/PapaJoesSoup/BDArmory/releases/download/v0.11.1.2/BDArmory.0.11.1.2_08032016.zip

3 hours ago, GDJ said:

Well, I built a stealth-style plane and I can honestly say it's a different form of warfare. So far my A-7 style plane (no missiles, ECM jammer, 2 Hidden Vulcans, chaff and flares) can trounce the Stealth plane 3 to 1. The Stealth plane I built is far faster (two engines) and likes missiles, but it also has 2 hidden vulcans, full radar (hidden in bomb bay), ECM and chaff/flares and it tends to shoot and turns to evade and hits mach 2. If the A-7 gets within 2 km it's game over for the Stealth. Stealth planes are so far rather heavy for evasive tight maneuvers, while a plane made for the previous tournaments zips in, dodges a couple of missiles, and turns the opponent into copper jacketed swiss cheese in short order.

This might be a long battle between Stealth-style fighter/bombers. They tend to favour having large amounts of distance between them and dogfights will be rather short (basically who can line up the guns first).

Currently, my stealth aircraft are styled after F-22s, and can turn quite a bit worse than the controversial FA-33. I use radomes in my aircraft, and that's usually the nose of the craft. Only a few chaff and flares actually fit in my point allowance after that, and ECM is very expensive. I think it will be interesting to see how the stealth metagame evolves, and if they will ever compete on fair terms with a plane made for the previous tournaments. I haven't built a craft that can actually evade a missile, but these can outrun them.

Edited August 7, 2016 by Alphasus