is an Eve SSTO rocket possible?

[Warzouz]

I did quite a lot of Reusable SSTO Rockets (even 600T payloads). They are cheap if recovered properly but since 1.0.5 reentry is much harder and big babies tend to blow quicker than lighter ones.

I didn't played with Eve since 1.0.4, but I already had trouble with reentry overheating. Landing big SSTO rockets on Eve (because it'll be heavy) will already be very hard (but far from impossible).

As for the ascent part, I never tried SSTO on Eve so I don't know. Even if the chart says 8000m/s, I already did a ascent from Eve with 6600m/s (VAC) starting from around 1000m (but I even failed later with a modified 7000m/s rocket...). Eve ascent path and rocket aero profile seems to be VERY significant.

I never tried SSTO spaceplanes though.

[Sharpy]

BTW, SSTO doesn't have to mean SSFOaB (...from orbit and back).

Land, exhausting almost all fuel. Deploy surface outpost containing ISRU, drills, power source for that. Refuel. Leave the outpost on the surface. Launch and fly back to the orbit. The ISRU is a deployed payload.

[magnemoe]

35 minutes ago, Sharpy said:

BTW, SSTO doesn't have to mean SSFOaB (...from orbit and back).

Land, exhausting almost all fuel. Deploy surface outpost containing ISRU, drills, power source for that. Refuel. Leave the outpost on the surface. Launch and fly back to the orbit. The ISRU is a deployed payload.

Yes but in this case you could just land the ISRU or fuel in an disposable lander too and save the cargo bay. 
If you put down an functional base this would be very legit play. I'm underway to do the same on Tylo, put down base with an two stage lander, have an light lander land and refuel on base before returning to orbit. 
So putting an base on an mountain land ssto dry drive to base and refuel, even meeting an fuel truck underway is ok, then take of. 

[foamyesque]

2 hours ago, Sharpy said:

BTW, SSTO doesn't have to mean SSFOaB (...from orbit and back).

Land, exhausting almost all fuel. Deploy surface outpost containing ISRU, drills, power source for that. Refuel. Leave the outpost on the surface. Launch and fly back to the orbit. The ISRU is a deployed payload.

I dunno if I'd count that, myself; it sounds like a stage to me.

[Red Iron Crown]

1 hour ago, foamyesque said:

I dunno if I'd count that, myself; it sounds like a stage to me.

It is, but it's an additional stage from orbit. SSTO is ascent-to-orbit only by most people's definition, I think.

[KerikBalm]

Astrobonds SSTO: that was 1.02 if I recall correctly, and it would likely die in the heating from 1.04+

Also he never demonstrated de-orbiting and landing the thing (wasn't necessary from the rules of the challenge). Its landing gear were flimsy, and it would have come in very hot and heavy from orbit, so I have my doubts that it could be put down on the surface in one piece, let alone a precision landing on that mountain top. -Still very impressive and shows how borderline conditions are on eve.

Stratenblitz's concept is something I had though about, but never tried... docking on a suborbital trajectory.

Its not single stage to orbit per se, because you bring in a second stage before reaching orbit.... its a single stage to suborbital rendezvous... but that may be the way to go.

Anyway, the idea of a single ship that can go anywhere without docking or meeting up with another ship... not happening in KSP.

Quote

it could go and land ANYWHERE. Do anything, without any help, without a fuel tender, it wouldn't even need gantries,

Getting to the surface of eve and back up "without any help" has not been shown. Getting back up has been shown in an easier aero model, but the payload fraction was like 0.01% or so... you aren't going to be hauling up mining equipment.

Even if you get to orbit of eve, you've got a problem....once in Eve orbit... you need ANOTHER 1850 m/s TO LAND ON GILLY!!!

What good is getting to eve orbit, if you are stuck in eve orbit with no fuel... your ship will still need assistance.

That means this fictional Eve SSTO ship is going to have to have help... to be a part of an even bigger "go anywhere" ship that undocks the "lander" for places like eve or tylo.

Any you're still not going to get to the datum elevation on Jool and back up... no way

Edited August 16, 2016 by KerikBalm

[Jarin]

4 hours ago, foamyesque said:

I dunno if I'd count that, myself; it sounds like a stage to me.

That only counts as a stage if KSC counts as a stage.

[Pecan]

4 hours ago, Red Iron Crown said:

It is, but it's an additional stage from orbit. SSTO is ascent-to-orbit only by most people's definition, I think.

Yep.

Single Stage To Orbit.  It's easier to understand than rocket science.
Typically I'd call anything that can go down and back up a reusable lander and I wouldn't care if it needs to refuel on the surface or leaves some stuff there (once - it's a payload as Sharpy said).  That's just me though.

[Wcmille]

I did not pursue this idea to completion, but my thought was to use two craft instead of one. The craft that actually lands on Eve isn't capable of returning to orbit, only sub-orbital flight. It goes to Ap, and then is "caught" by another craft. That craft then circularizes both craft. This means the craft which lands on Eve only needs 4000 or 5000 dV.

This creates a fully repeatable landing system.

 

Another way might be to use a helicopter system, if you consider that solution to be stock.

 

[Sharpy]

8 hours ago, KerikBalm said:

What good is getting to eve orbit, if you are stuck in eve orbit with no fuel... your ship will still need assistance.

 

That means this fictional Eve SSTO ship is going to have to have help... to be a part of an even bigger "go anywhere" ship that undocks the "lander" for places like eve or tylo.

Any you're still not going to get to the datum elevation on Jool and back up... no way

I don't build go-anywhere ships. I build infrastructure. A miner / fuel depot to provide fuel from Gilly (and deliver it to Eve low orbit). Kerbin gets an asteroid-based fuel station. Jool? Pol or Bop as source for the depot; maybe even one of dresteroids if I'm feeling ambitious.

The ships just need to reach the next fuel station, and the fuel station is where the ships need it (unless it's out, refilling).

The SSTO with some 8-9km/s of delta-v to the orbit can go pretty much anywhere once it's refueled on the orbit... then there will be another station to fuel it for landing. And possibly yet another on the surface...

[KerikBalm]

Thats great that you don't, IMO you shouldn't.

But the OP was specifically asking about something that " could go and land ANYWHERE. Do anything, without any help, without a fuel tender, "

[Sereneti]

"dense atmosphere"...
yes the dense atmosphere are bad;
Aerospike help a little .

Theretical it should help to hav a large wing area to get out of the thick atmosphere with low speed.

its an Eve SSTO possible: yes.

its an Eve SSTO praktikal: no.

 

Edited August 17, 2016 by Sereneti

[Sharpy]

1 hour ago, KerikBalm said:

Thats great that you don't, IMO you shouldn't.

But the OP was specifically asking about something that " could go and land ANYWHERE. Do anything, without any help, without a fuel tender, "

Well then, the answer is Alt+F12, Fuel Cheat.

You aren't gonna launch from Kerbin, reach Eve, descend, and launch back without refueling somewhere along the way, or at least dropping some empty fuel tanks.

[KerikBalm]

Quote

its an Eve SSTO possible: yes.

Prove it.

There was only ever 1 SSTO from Eve, on one version that was quite different from the current version

8 minutes ago, Sharpy said:

Well then, the answer is Alt+F12, Fuel Cheat.

You aren't gonna launch from Kerbin, reach Eve, descend, and launch back without refueling somewhere along the way, or at least dropping some empty fuel tanks.

Well, the OP had on-board ISRU in mind, but no other ships, if I interpreted his post correctly.

That requires not just single staging from Eve, but single staging from Eve to Gilly/bakc to kerbin (back to kerbin with heavy aerobraking or a mun gravity assist may be easier).

He did after all talk about SSTOing from kerbin to minmus for a refuel

[Sharpy]

3 minutes ago, KerikBalm said:

Prove it.

 

SSTO from Eve is possible, but it will ONLY be SSTO, nothing more.

Starting on Eve's mountain top with full fuel, reaching Eve low orbit.

No flight from Kerbin. No ISRU on board. No payload. No Gilly. Not landing. Not anywhere on Eve. Possibly not even a Kerbal on board, just a tiny probe core powered from the engine's alternator.

Just hyperedit your craft to the mountain top, and perform the orbital ascent. Proof of concept with no practical meaning.
 

[KerikBalm]

You're still just making bare assertions. There was only ever 1 SSTO demonstrated from the tallest mountain on Eve. It had no ISRU, no payload, could not land, hyperedited to the mountain top.

As far as I can tell, it does not work in 1.05 or 1.1

You can't just say that its possible but hard, you have to prove it.

[eddiew]

19 hours ago, fourfa said:

Made it myself after much exploding in Eve testing in 1.0.4 and 1.0.5. This captures the atmospheric changes that came in with 1.0.5., and AFAIK nothing has changed about Eve since then

Fantastic, have some rep!

[fourfa]

2 hours ago, eddiew said:

Fantastic, have some rep!

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[eddiew]

Yes, yes I do, thanks for sharing   This kind of analysis deserves its own thread somewhere, tbh, preferably stickied...

[Sharpy]

Could you make one with Y axis for pressure instead of altitude? That way we'd get all planets easily covered

[Brainlord Mesomorph]

I'd love to see the nuke on that chart

[Red Iron Crown]

27 minutes ago, Brainlord Mesomorph said:

I'd love to see the nuke on that chart

It's going to look pretty rough, even in vacuum it will only be about as good as the Mainsail at Eve sea level TWR-wise and is completely dead at 2 atm of pressure (about 6.5km or lower on Eve).

[fourfa]

6 hours ago, eddiew said:

Yes, yes I do, thanks for sharing   This kind of analysis deserves its own thread somewhere, tbh, preferably stickied...

 

[fourfa]

16 hours ago, Sharpy said:

Could you make one with Y axis for pressure instead of altitude? That way we'd get all planets easily covered

Relative to Eve, Kerbin's atmosphere starts around 10km; Laythe at around 15km, and Duna around 30km.  The Eve chart is most interesting to me because it covers all the interesting cases (not sure about Jool or whether it's interesting).

Also, I just recalled this item from the 1.1 release notes:

"Physics

• Make Eve's upper atmosphere slightly gentler."

Not sure how much that might affect the chart.

Edited August 18, 2016 by fourfa

[Warzouz]

On 16/8/2016 at 5:41 PM, Sharpy said:

BTW, SSTO doesn't have to mean SSFOaB (...from orbit and back).

Land, exhausting almost all fuel. Deploy surface outpost containing ISRU, drills, power source for that. Refuel. Leave the outpost on the surface. Launch and fly back to the orbit. The ISRU is a deployed payload.

The whole purpose of a SSTO (whatever design it has is reusability. Other than that, there is no real meaning for SSTO. When you use a Tylo SSTO lander, as I did back in 0.9, it's because you want to use it multiple times (or recover funds for most of it).

Leaving a platform on Eve will make your ship not a SSTO, because you leave a part. Sure it's not 100% wordy accurate (that' why we have flourishing ridiculous acronyms...). But the concept of SSTO (rocket of space plane is REUSABILITY).

Sure on Kerbin, SSTO only have to take-off and reenter (if reusable, which most of them are). On other planets, they should land and ascent to be qualified as SSTO. In orbit, they would refuel using whatever tug/station/mothership/fuel tank you have designed but that's not part of a SSTO.

And the lander could do it again and again.