Being The Dreaded "Idea Guy"

[SpannerMonkey(smce)]

I was going to have one more go at stirring some motivation, read back a bit more, wrote the bit below

Spoiler

After all this time with so many posts saying  basically "get a grip man" and the constant swerving and wriggling of the OP I've become convinced this whole thread has just been some sneaky kind of self promotion attempt, or some way of deriving masochistic pleasure rather than a discussion surrounding the high and lows of an ideas guy.  But if that's how someone derives enjoyment who am i to criticise.

and then thought NO, I've got it, reading back shone the light, it's not an ideas guy problem at all, it's just yet another daydreamer....

[Bill Phil]

Have you heard of a GED? Not as good as a highschool diploma, yes, but if you have other things on your resume to make up for it you should be fine... And getting jobs is hard even with a normal highschool diploma.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Bill Phil

[Camacha]

48 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

But a diploma gets you a job.

No, it does not.

The why and how would be a long discussion, but that is the gist of it.

Quote

Not having one makes life much harder, even with creativity and wit.

Look. The past century or so, people have told children that a diploma is the way to make it in life. And they were right. Getting a diploma meant the difference between being stuck forever in a low paying  job, or climbing the ladder and getting somewhere. Most of that logic still applies. Getting a diploma means acquiring a set of skills and a way of thinking that will serve you the rest of your life. Now think hard. Does that not remind you of something discussed in this topic before?

The thing is, the world has changed the past decade or so. Before, you had no different way of acquiring your skills than to go through schools. Information was hard to access and locked up in specific places. So even though that acquiring the skills associated with a diploma are still valuable, there are now other ways of acquiring those skills. Stay in school, they used to say, because that was the only way to do it. It still is a good way of doing it. However, there now are many different ways of doing it. Keep on learning is what they meant and should have said. Schools are a way, instead of the way. Instead of sitting in a classroom, you can now visit a website to learn mathematics. You use an app to learn various languages. You can learn how to program on many different websites. You can follow advanced classes on many MOOC websites, often organised by renowned institutions. You can download amazing tools for free and learn how to model in 3D. You can even find videos on how to solder, weld or tie your tie.

Information is no longer locked up in specific places, which means you can keep on learning in many different ways. If you think about it, the value of a diploma is that it guarantees that you have basic knowledge X and Y. If you can get your diploma, by all means, it will not hurt. However, if that does not turn out to be the way to go, you can keep developing, and you should. It is not the end of the world, because there are other ways of doing it. That is what makes you a valuable employee and what will land you jobs in the end. You will see this when you start working too; very soon it is not about your diploma any more, it is about what you know, can do and have done. That is what gets you to where you need to be in life.

Long story short: a diploma is valued because it represents an acquired skill set and knowledge. It is an easy way of showing people what you did and know, which it is why it is good to have one. However, it is not the only way. In the end, it is your skills and knowledge and how you put them to use that make your career.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Camacha

[ZooNamedGames]

18 minutes ago, Bill Phil said:

Have you heard of a GED? Not as good as a highschool diploma, yes, but if you have other things on your resume to make up for it you should be fine... And getting jobs is hard even with a normal highschool diploma.

Which is why you go to college. I'd rather quit than get a GED, I've got enough problems and holes in my resume, a GED would just be the last nail in the sinking coffin.

4 minutes ago, Camacha said:

No, it does not.

The why and how would be a long discussion, but that is the gist of it.

Look. The past century or so, people have told children that a diploma is the way to make it in life. And they were right. Getting a diploma meant the difference between being stuck forever in a low paying  job, or climbing the ladder and getting somewhere. Most of that logic still applies. Getting a diploma means acquiring a set of skills and a way of thinking that will serve you the rest of your life. Now think hard. Does that not remind you of something discussed in this topic before?

The thing is, the world has changed the past decade or so. Before, you had no different way of acquiring your skills than to go through schools. Information was hard to access and locked up in specific places. So even though that acquiring the skills associated with a diploma are still valuable, there are now other ways of acquiring those skills. Stay in school, they used to say, because that was the only way to do it. It still is a good way of doing it. However, there now are many different ways of doing it. Keep on learning is what they meant and should have said. Schools are a way, instead of the way. Instead of sitting in a classroom, you can now visit a website to learn mathematics. You use an app to learn various languages. You can learn how to program on many different websites. You can follow advanced classes on many MOOC websites, often organised by renowned institutions. You can download amazing tools for free and learn how to model in 3D. You can even find videos on how to solder, weld or tie your tie.

Information is no longer locked up in specific places, which means you can keep on learning in many different ways. If you think about it, the value of a diploma is that it guarantees that you have basic knowledge X and Y. If you can get your diploma, by all means, it will not hurt. However, if that does not turn out to be the way to go, you can keep developing, and you should. It is not the end of the world, because there are other ways of doing it. That is what makes you a valuable employee and what will land you jobs in the end. You will see this when you start working too; very soon it is not about your diploma any more, it is about what you know, can do and have done. That is what gets you to where you need to be in life.

Long story short: a diploma is valued because it represents an acquired skill set and knowledge. It is an easy way of showing people what you did and know, which it is why it is good to have one. However, it is not the only way. In the end, it is your skills and knowledge and how you put them to use that make your career.

Your right. I can't give focus on a single subject for more than 2 years. Guess that explains a lot and why I'm falling apart at the seams everywhere.

Those sources are nice, but they'd be lost on me seeing as I just don't learn that well. I can pass the class, but I don't learn anything. So when I get to college where they test me on those skills... I fail.

I barely made it up the easy path through school, I doubt I have the power or motivation to make it up anything more difficult.

[Bill Phil]

Just now, ZooNamedGames said:

Which is why you go to college. I'd rather quit than get a GED, I've got enough problems and holes in my resume, a GED would just be the last nail in the sinking coffin.

A GED would be better than no diploma at all.

College doesn't get you jobs, either. I know some examples myself...

[ZooNamedGames]

1 minute ago, Bill Phil said:

A GED would be better than no diploma at all.

College doesn't get you jobs, either. I know some examples myself...

But with the holes in my resume, people would ignore it seeing the greater problems.

It gets me better jobs, and maybe a step in the door as many I'm looking at do.

[Bill Phil]

1 minute ago, ZooNamedGames said:

But with the holes in my resume, people would ignore it seeing the greater problems.

It gets me better jobs, and maybe a step in the door as many I'm looking at do.

If you have that many holes in your resume college wouldn't help much either.

It gets you opportunities, but it doesn't guarantee a job at all.

[pxi]

9 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

I can pass the class, but I don't learn anything.

I find this hard to believe.

[ZooNamedGames]

Just now, Bill Phil said:

If you have that many holes in your resume college wouldn't help much either.

It gets you opportunities, but it doesn't guarantee a job at all.

By the time I have a diploma and a college degree then the holes are much smaller than when all I had is only a GED.

Actually it gives a pretty good shot. To fail would likely mean straight up insulting the employer.

Getting a job isn't my issue; it's getting to college. I know your going to say otherwise but knowing myself and what I can do, once I'm in college it's all down hill from there. Highschool is my sole issue.

Granted you'll have a long speech against that and how I'm incompetent (and your right).

[Bill Phil]

Just now, ZooNamedGames said:

By the time I have a diploma and a college degree then the holes are much smaller than when all I had is only a GED.

Actually it gives a pretty good shot. To fail would likely mean straight up insulting the employer.

Getting a job isn't my issue; it's getting to college. I know your going to say otherwise but knowing myself and what I can do, once I'm in college it's all down hill from there. Highschool is my sole issue.

Granted you'll have a long speech against that and how I'm incompetent (and your right).

You might end up making more holes with your college degree, though. Which *could* make things worse. Or it might improve your resume. It depends on how you go about it.

It gives a good shot if you take advantage of the opportunities that college provides.

[Camacha]

 

4 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

Those sources are nice, but they'd be lost on me seeing as I just don't learn that well. I can pass the class, but I don't learn anything. So when I get to college where they test me on those skills... I fail.

Nonsense. At worst, you do not function well within a school system, but that means you are incompatible with that specific system, not with learning in general.

4 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

I barely made it up the easy path through school, I doubt I have the power or motivation to make it up anything more difficult.

Did you feel school was fun? Did it challenge you? Did it interest you?

4 minutes ago, ZooNamedGames said:

Getting a job isn't my issue; it's getting to college. I know your going to say otherwise but knowing myself and what I can do [...]

You might be right. Personally, I both enjoyed the switch from high school to college and from college to work again. The burden of having more responsibilities was compensated and then some by having more freedom and actually doing relevant things.

[Frybert]

@ZooNamedGames, you're in central FL correct?

[ZooNamedGames]

3 minutes ago, Frybert said:

@ZooNamedGames, you're in central FL correct?

Yes, why?

[Frybert]

1 minute ago, ZooNamedGames said:

Yes, why?

Look into Seminole State College's 'adult high school' program. In all honesty I don't even know if it's still around, but if it is, then it might be right up your alley.

[Camacha]

5 minutes ago, Frybert said:

Look into Seminole State College's 'adult high school' program. In all honesty I don't even know if it's still around, but if it is, then it might be right up your alley.

It seems it still is. You can even do it online.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Camacha

[ZooNamedGames]

3 minutes ago, Frybert said:

Look into Seminole State College's 'adult high school' program. In all honesty I don't even know if it's still around, but if it is, then it might be right up your alley.

Well thankfully programs like it have become more widespread and even ran by independent companies now.

28 minutes ago, Bill Phil said:

You might end up making more holes with your college degree, though. Which *could* make things worse. Or it might improve your resume. It depends on how you go about it.

It gives a good shot if you take advantage of the opportunities that college provides.

Your shooting my holes in my boat than I do. 

[0111narwhalz]

Before I begin, a disclaimer: I'm on mobile at the moment, so quoting is hard. The content in quote-boxes should be treated as paraphrases and my interpretations, not verbatim.

Quote

I suck at learning.

You don't suck at learning. You can play KSP. That requires learning. Not only this, but you have completed several challenges. That undermines this conviction you have even further. It would seem you suck at motivation. Why is this the case? Well, there could be several possible options. You could have difficulty setting manageable goals. You could feel so incompetent that it seems impossible to succeed. You may fail to see the path to your goal. It is important to find the root of your problems before you try to solve them.

Spoiler

I can't figure out how to "Hello World," much less program.

This is perhaps an issue with your approach to learning. Programming, like mathematics, lends itself to a conceptual form of learning (my preference). History, on the other hand, lends itself to learning by repetition. In your allegedly disasterous academic career so far, which of the classes were the "least terrible?" Determining your learning aptitude is an important part of deciding what kind of career you would best persue.

Quote

I understand computers, but not code.

So you understand chips of silicon with millions of gates and memory cells etched into them with tiny wires connecting the microscopic elements, but not a set of instructions in text format telling the same chips what to do? This seems counterintuitive to me. Perhaps you'd be better off trying to learn assembly code or FORTRAN, then. If that seems outrageous, maybe you need to change how you're looking at code. Code is a set of instructions. The syntax might be arbitrary, but it's important to keep straight. It's called a "language" for a reason. Apart from that, think about the commands you're using. A computer moves data, sums data, and performs I/O interactions with the peripherals. Conditionals split your list of instructions into separate parts based upon the data. There are no other kinds of commands, just as there are only a couple kinds of quarks. Variables are just a name for a collection of data. Multiplication is just adding a bunch of times. For loops are just a fancy conditional. If you think of it like this, it might make more sense.

Quote

I tried many things, but I don't have skills.

Do you ride a bicycle or drive an automobile? That requires skill. But I can guarantee you didn't have that skill when you started. You got on that bicycle...and then fell down. You got in that automobile...and then did something absolutely foolish. You know this. You can use a pencil to write, a keyboard to type. Did you not make hideous, meaningless scribbles as a child, proclaiming loudly that they meant something to you? But now look at yourself. Presumably, you ride a bicycle with at least passable skill. You may or may not drive an automobile. You can write in a fashion that others can understand. You can use a computer. Look at all these things you could not do at birth. How did you get these skills? By work. You rode that bicycle again and again until you didn't need your parent's hand. You scribbled and you wrote until the scribbles turned into letters, and the letters into words, and so on. You learned.
But why did you learn? Because you wanted to. Do you want to be a programmer? Do the ideas left unrendered burn within you? Does the fact that you lack the skill to create an object in reality cause your soul pain? If so, you will learn anything to make the pain go away, if nothing else.

I've talked about you, but let me establish myself. I am a senior in high school. I've tried many things in my time, made rubbish, and then failed when I put them away. But I didn't put them away forever.
Take my art, for point of argument. Several years ago, back in elementary school, I drew. A lot. And it was, to be frank, crap. I stopped for several years, until three years ago I tried it out again. And something clicked. Something that made me start drawing again until I became decent at it. That something was smoke. Thick, billowing smoke gave me joy in my art again. I haven't stopped drawing since.
Another example: writing. If you saw my writing anytime between the very first paper I wrote and when I started Kerbal Future, you would have thought I was a liar and a scoundrel to claim authorship of the latter. I was the worst student when it came to writing. I was unable to start on writing tests in elementary school. I had to be pulled out of an assembly to finish one such test in junior high. If you had told me anywhere in that time that I would be any kind of writer, that I would write for fun, I would have denounced you as a heretic. But only a couple months ago, I got third in a competition with a writing entry.
One more rather pertinent item: Programming. I read at least five programming textbooks during junior high, on such languages as Java or C++. I tried several times to build games and other grandiose projects (such as one gem, titled "Angry Turds").
Never once did I bring one of these projects to completion.
But over the summer, I investigated C#. I had a specific goal in mind: build a program which would solve each problem on Project Euler. So far, I'm at 19 of 568. The fact is, the first problem was a basic goal which was more about learning the syntax of the language. It made for a good introduction ("The first one's always free!"), without being patronising like "Hello World." They ramped up in difficulty from there, but the fact that I succeeded with a program was energizing. I'd suggest solving the first half-dozen of these before you decide whether you make a "good programmer."

I wonder how long ago it was the last time you tried to do something. If it was more than a few years, give it another shot. If it was recent, look at it differently. But most importantly, set a goal, and don't stop until you reach it. If that goal is as simple as "make 'Hello World' work properly from scratch," that's fine! Once you reach your goal, pat yourself on the back, grab a sweet, and revel in the glory of your success. Then, if you feel like that goal was too simple, or if you enjoyed yourself, set another goal a little further away.
I subscribe to this guy's notions. In some of his Kerbal Space Programming videos, he discusses the "one function, one job" idea. Each function or method has one job to do. Some methods call upon multiple other methods, but each one is dedicated to one specific task. His way of writing code on camera is very informative. First he names the main method what he wants the whole program to do. Then, within the main method, he itemizes all the tasks that have to occur to achieve this, at a very high level. Things like "DoGravityTurn." And then he does the same for each of these tasks. It's a very interesting method, and seems powerful. Perhaps you might find success trying this out?

[pxi]

38 minutes ago, 0111narwhalz said:

 

I subscribe to this guy's notions. In some of his Kerbal Space Programming videos, he discusses the "one function, one job" idea. Each function or method has one job to do. Some methods call upon multiple other methods, but each one is dedicated to one specific task. His way of writing code on camera is very informative. First he names the main method what he wants the whole program to do. Then, within the main method, he itemizes all the tasks that have to occur to achieve this, at a very high level. Things like "DoGravityTurn." And then he does the same for each of these tasks. It's a very interesting method, and seems powerful. Perhaps you might find success trying this out?

Also known as the Unix Philosophy, and yes, it is a fantastic way of thinking about and structuring your code.

Quote

The UNIX philosophy is documented by Doug McIlroy^[1] in the The Bell System Technical Journal from 1978:^[2]

1. Make each program do one thing well. To do a new job, build afresh rather than complicate old programs by adding new "features".
2. Expect the output of every program to become the input to another, as yet unknown, program. Don't clutter output with extraneous information. Avoid stringently columnar or binary input formats. Don't insist on interactive input.
3. Design and build software, even operating systems, to be tried early, ideally within weeks. Don't hesitate to throw away the clumsy parts and rebuild them.
4. Use tools in preference to unskilled help to lighten a programming task, even if you have to detour to build the tools and expect to throw some of them out after you've finished using them.

 

[ZooNamedGames]

After some long thought, I'll go and learn some coding... That is if I can get someone to help walk me through the teaching course.

[Green Baron]

Good idea.

Which language ? Python e.g. ? Lot's of online courses, costs nothing, platform independent, widespread use ...

Language doesn't matter, just concentrate on one. If you like i'll accompany you. That fat python 3 book lies here since 2 years ...

 

Edited September 14, 2016 by Green Baron

[ZooNamedGames]

3 minutes ago, Green Baron said:

Good idea.

Which language ? Python e.g. ? Lot's of online courses, costs nothing, platform independent, widespread use ...

Language doesn't matter, just concentrate on one. If you like i'll accompany you. That fat python 3 book lies here since 2 years ...

 

Whatever you suggest for game development.

[Green Baron]

Python 3 is used by Blender and Godot. I linked them severel posts above.

It's a start. Game development is a wide field, let's say a sophisticated simulator might have a speed problem with python, a platformer not.

There are two kinds of languages: compiled and interpreted. Compiled ones need some planning before the coding begins, the programs are written in human readable and then compiled into machine language. Classic example: C. Interpreted languanges on the other side are written in plain text is then sent to an interpreter that translates and executes it. Classic example: Basic. Compiled programs are much faster. But a language like C, as easy and compact as it is, needs some deeper knowledge of the internals of a computer because you mess with memory directly. Which can really be punkrock but also great fun. Also, C is as fast as machine code. Wrtiting a game in plain c is - rewarding. I know a little C but have never written large programs (max. 2000 lines, long ago ... a few exercises lately).

 

C++, i am in the course of learning it (for me alone) but i'm getting from one plateau to another. Would not recommend it to someone who hasn't been into programming before.

 

Python is an interpreted language. It also has some object oriented stuff built in. You need not know about the machine's internals.

 

How about it ? What kind if collaboration would you suggest ? Would you consider buying a book like e. g.

https://www.amazon.com/Learning-Python-Fabrizio-Romano/dp/1783551712/ref=pd_sim_14_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=68SQ2AYX8XMFQWPQAHXD

to have a structured guide to follow ? I allways find internet tutorials too superficial and time consuming in relation to the output ;-)

 

[pxi]

Python seems to be a popular place to start coding.  In one of your previous threads a few months back I linked to the MIT Open Courseware Introduction to Programming series on youtube - that course used Python.

C# or C++ would be the other obvious suggestions.

The important thing is not so much choosing the 'right' language as just getting familiar with the basics - get comfortable with data types; strings, ints, floats etc.  Learn how to create functions.  Get your head around the object-oriented paradigm.  These are things that you'll find are mostly common between languages.  Once you have a good grounding in the basics it will be a lot easier for you to figure out which direction you want to go.

I'd also agree with the notion of buying a book to work from.  Not to say you can't get going with web-based tutorials, but in my own experience I've found it helpful having something offscreen to refer to.

[ZooNamedGames]

16 minutes ago, pxi said:

Python seems to be a popular place to start coding.  In one of your previous threads a few months back I linked to the MIT Open Courseware Introduction to Programming series on youtube - that course used Python.

C# or C++ would be the other obvious suggestions.

The important thing is not so much choosing the 'right' language as just getting familiar with the basics - get comfortable with data types; strings, ints, floats etc.  Learn how to create functions.  Get your head around the object-oriented paradigm.  These are things that you'll find are mostly common between languages.  Once you have a good grounding in the basics it will be a lot easier for you to figure out which direction you want to go.

I'd also agree with the notion of buying a book to work from.  Not to say you can't get going with web-based tutorials, but in my own experience I've found it helpful having something offscreen to refer to.

I don't have a lot of money so I'll have to go with free online courses.

What program can I use to begin the simple early stuff? Notepad will only take me so far.

[pxi]

1 hour ago, ZooNamedGames said:

I don't have a lot of money so I'll have to go with free online courses.

What program can I use to begin the simple early stuff? Notepad will only take me so far.

You'd be surprised.  I tend to go with nano in Linux, and that's not much more feature-rich than notepad.

You could have a look at notepad++, should at least give you syntax highlighting.