Improved Runway Lights

[Stoney3K]

The current runway lights are adequate but they can definitely be improved for precision approaches. For example, adding a series of red and green lights at the runway thresholds, and adding a string of strobe lights in the direction where aircraft approach (East).

The current runway lights make it difficult to line up and get the correct glide slope when flying at night, especially when you want to spot it from a distance.

Having an Approach Lighting System (the string of lights leading up to the green threshold) as well as a PAPI (the four yellow/red lights next to the runway) would be very helpful if you want to fly night time approaches. Maybe we can look into implementing more advanced runway lighting for level 3 and keep the basic runway lights for the level 2 runway?

[Alshain]

This has been asked for quite a bit, but to be honest I don't feel like Squad wants to alter existing Tier 3 space center assets any further. (that is not something they said, just my gut feeling)

Edited September 11, 2016 by Alshain

[royying]

42 minutes ago, Alshain said:

This has been asked for quite a bit, but to be honest I don't feel like Squad wants to alter existing Tier 3 space center assets any further. (that is not something they said, just my gut feeling)

How about add a Tier 4 runway?

Tier 4 = Tier 3 runway + guidance light

That makes Tier 4 runway a optional upgrade

Edited September 11, 2016 by royying

[Rocket In My Pocket]

This is KSP.

Make your own lights and drive them out there. (Make sure you to keep them to the sides/ends of the runway, not actually on it as you won't be able to launch.)

The fun is in solving the problem yourself via clever engineering.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Rocket In My Pocket

[Alshain]

1 minute ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

This is KSP.

Make your own lights and drive them out there. (Make sure you to keep them to the sides/ends of the runway, not actually on it as you won't be able to launch.)

The fun is in solving the problem yourself via clever engineering.

That isn't really possible.  He is talking about making a PAPI system, driving lights out there wouldn't do that.

[Van Disaster]

There's mods for it, as ever, but even some lighting upgrades to the runway would be nice so they're coloured appropriately.

Real runway markings are pretty complicated too ...

Spoiler

 

Edited September 11, 2016 by Van Disaster

[UnusualAttitude]

1 hour ago, Van Disaster said:

There's mods for it, as ever, but even some lighting upgrades to the runway would be nice so they're coloured appropriately.

Real runway markings are pretty complicated too ...

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Sorry to be off topic (and I do agree with the OP, the runway is kinda hard to see at night),  but may I ask where you got that runway? Is it Kerbal Konstructs? Cause that's exactly what I need: just a longer runway. 

[Van Disaster]

Built it myself, for KK, for the same reason - ironically never finished it because of lighting issues no suitably long-range lighting shader at the time ( not sure about now ). If there isn't I'll write one eventually.

[Rocket In My Pocket]

1 hour ago, Alshain said:

That isn't really possible.  He is talking about making a PAPI system, driving lights out there wouldn't do that.

I've actually made my own PAPI system in KSP, it's not hard but the problem is...the lights are too small to see until you are right on top of them.

Really, all you need is bigger lights. Gotta be a mod for that somewhere.

[Van Disaster]

4 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

I've actually made my own PAPI system in KSP, it's not hard but the problem is...the lights are too small to see until you are right on top of them.

Really, all you need is bigger lights. Gotta be a mod for that somewhere.

You need better shaders, which I just mentioned above the problem is the lit up bits get so small the game decides not to draw them, and you want to force it to draw at least one pixel for much longer. It's complicated a bit by the multiple cameras KSP uses, perhaps we just need to put stuff in the right layer.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Van Disaster

[RoboRay]

Deleted due to lack of interest in interim solutions here while waiting for a stock solution.

Edited September 12, 2016 by RoboRay
Deleted due to lack of interest in interim solutions here while waiting for a stock solution.

[Alshain]

1 hour ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

I've actually made my own PAPI system in KSP, it's not hard but the problem is...the lights are too small to see until you are right on top of them.

Really, all you need is bigger lights. Gotta be a mod for that somewhere.

A functional one?  How would that be possible (without a mod)?

[Rocket In My Pocket]

57 minutes ago, Alshain said:

A functional one?  How would that be possible (without a mod)?

Nothing too fancy, you'd actually technically call it a VASI (Visual Approach Slope Indicator) It's the older version of a PAPI we don't really use anymore irl.

Basically just an angled piece of metal covering a set of lights where the angle prevents you seeing them unless you are in the correct glide slope.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_approach_slope_indicator

Edited September 11, 2016 by Rocket In My Pocket

[Alshain]

I don't think you could do a VASI either.  What angle is the shield to get the perfect glide slope? Where is the assembly placed to get the perfect glide slope?  Building it would be an enormous chore.

[TheGuyNamedAlan]

i dont really find it that hard to line up tho. i reckon it is easy enough to see

[Rocket In My Pocket]

2 hours ago, Alshain said:

I don't think you could do a VASI either.  What angle is the shield to get the perfect glide slope? Where is the assembly placed to get the perfect glide slope?  Building it would be an enormous chore.

Well yeah, it is an enormous chore.

That plus the fact that you can hardly see the lights in the first place is why I abandoned the idea sadly.

The only effective landing guide I've been able to make is a series of probe cores named with their distance from end of runway placed out in front of it. The first one is at 1500m and they go in 250m increments until you reach the runway, this at least gives you some idea of where you are, and they are easy to see due to the giant reticle the game places over them. However I abandoned these as well as they affected game performance during landings/takeoffs. Honestly I don't think any actual guidance is really needed to land (It just seemed like a fun idea to try), KSP's flight physics are plenty forgiving enough even for a novice pilot.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Rocket In My Pocket

[swjr-swis]

4 hours ago, RoboRay said:

I put down a flag off the east and west ends of the runway, and put another flag lined up with the runway centerline 5 km west of KSC.  That makes the approach easy.

This has been my method in stock games for a very long time now. Basic but it works, especially because the game identifies them with markers that can be seen up to 99km out. The overlap/alignment of the markers can be used to align from a very long way out, and from 50km or closer, they start showing the distance live. Very useful.

The only problems I've noticed with this:

1. Switching craft anywhere within physics bubble distance of the runway will switch to the flags too. Not a huge issue if you expect it, but can be disastrous when unexpected and in a quick-reaction scenario.
2. For some reason, every so often, one or more of the flags get moved off their spot. Sometimes it's caused by flying a craft very nearby them, other times by the blast/exhaust of powerful or grouped engines, but in some cases I load a savefile and it's already happened without identifiable cause, and I just find out because the flags end up tens of km underground. Easily fixed by just recovering the now useless flag and placing a new one; a bit annoying but I guess real flags sometimes have to be replaced too, right?
3. This method does little to indicate a glide slope. Once the markers start showing the distance you can use that and your altitude to calculate your own glide slope though.

Edited September 12, 2016 by swjr-swis

[swjr-swis]

30 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

That plus the fact that you can hardly see the lights in the first place is why I abandoned the idea sadly.

I tried to make a matrix board type of thing once. One to make some huge visible thing to be seen from far out, and two to see if I could make a kind of switchable sign (action group based).

I found out that despite the overall size of the board (half the width of the runway), the lights would still not be visible. There appears to be a disappointingly small cut-off distance at which the lights are simply not rendered anymore, probably much like @Van Disaster experienced. Also, the black rim of the lights would at one point completely overwhelm the bright shining part, despite the surface area ratio suggesting the opposite, which likely has to do with that shader thing.

The real killer was that lights being an EC resource consumer, that many lights placed together ground the game to a halt, making it perform at SPF instead of FPS level.

[RoboRay]

Deleted due to lack of interest in interim solutions here while waiting for a stock solution.

Edited September 12, 2016 by RoboRay
Deleted due to lack of interest in interim solutions here while waiting for a stock solution.

[swjr-swis]

14 minutes ago, RoboRay said:

Or use the PAPI Plugin mod I mentioned.

Or not. I'm in pure stock mode these days, so no mods.

That's ok though, the flags work for me and I can keep a reasonable glide slope with just the distance and the altitude indications, good enough to land any of my flying contraptions safely. Even with hard to fly stuff, like @Rocket In My Pocket said, KSP stock is very forgiving; a reasonably survivable approach tends to amount to not much more than 'try to keep most wheels pointing approximately at the planet at the time of touch down'.

[Kerbinchaser]

I would LOVE PAPI. AND approach lighting.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Lo Var Lachland

[Alshain]

2 hours ago, RoboRay said:

Or use the PAPI Plugin mod I mentioned.  PAPI for glideslope, Flag markers for localizer.

This isn't the mod forum.  We are discussing an improvement to the stock game.  Besides, if you were going to use a mod, NavUtilities is much easier to read (it's an Instrument Landing System or ILS).

Edited September 12, 2016 by Alshain

[lajoswinkler]

12 hours ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

This is KSP.

Make your own lights and drive them out there. (Make sure you to keep them to the sides/ends of the runway, not actually on it as you won't be able to launch.)

The fun is in solving the problem yourself via clever engineering.

Why do people comment in this fashion? Every time someone proposes something, all you people can say is: "Mod it!"

 

Why are you so incredibly against progress?

[Rocket In My Pocket]

5 hours ago, lajoswinkler said:

Why do people comment in this fashion? Every time someone proposes something, all you people can say is: "Mod it!"

Why are you so incredibly against progress?

For one, you might have quoted the wrong person, since I never mentioned or suggested mods in any fashion? What I suggested was that he build a set of lights from stock parts and place it near the runway.

For two, Were not against progress, were just realists. The odds of Squad implementing this or any other suggestion is pretty slim. The odds of them doing it sooner rather than later? Even slimmer. If you want results now you would be better served by solving the problem yourself. Either by "building" a solution in stock as I suggested, or "modding" it as others have suggested. Thirdly, just because someone makes a suggestion does not mean they are "shooting down" the idea, they are simply trying to be helpful and offer an alternative to waiting until Squad implements the idea, (which they most likely won't.)

Also, I'm not sure I can take your accusation of "being against progress" seriously when you have #BringBackTheBarn under your name. 

Edited September 12, 2016 by Rocket In My Pocket

[Van Disaster]

For third, how many current stock features were prototyped, tested, developed and proven as mods first? the current resource system is Regolith, lock stock and barrel. Many others were gameplay proven first. If this is something thats proven popular & not niche then it'll end up in stock - far easier to sell when there's a tangible demo first.