Mobile Lab Science = No full records to KSC's R&D???

[Dire_Squid]

Ok, I know the Mobile Lab makes getting science all the more easier, and gives you much more science than if you put all the effort to get a craft to land and (hopefully) come back to Kerbin... but why can't the science you gain from the Mobile Lab count even a little bit to KSC's R&D dept.'s records? I dunno... call it the completionist in me, but I hate seeing blank bars in R&D's records, when it comes to things I know I can't transmit right off the bat (soil samples, and any science tech that won't transmit 1:1).

This isn't some "plz nerf this part" kind of gripe, but more of a "I desire feelings of accomplishment, through science" complaint. I'm sorry if I've wasted anyone's time. Thanks in advance.

[Wjolcz]

Because the science system is dumb, that's why.

This wouldn't be a problem if career/science worked in a way that isn't as inane as it is now. But there's a Stockholm syndrome going on and people actually like it, so there's no need to change it. Just keep applying them tweaks.

[Dire_Squid]

Yeah... that response wasn't helpful, at all... or even assuring.

...Or even warranted!

[Tyko]

I faced the same frustrations when I started playing and asked the same questions. There doesn't seem to be much drive to change it, so I decided to bring back a second copy of each experiment. In 1.1.x I created a custom science container part. This isn't necessary anymore with 1.2 and the new Science Storage Container. Just add that to your ship and run each experiment twice- once for your Lab and once for KSC.

[BeeGeenie]

Yeah, I was surprised by this change too. In some ways, it does act as a nerf to the SciLab, since you have to either:

1. Choose between the extra science gained in the lab and completing the R&D checklist.

or

2. Plan ahead, and get 2 copies of all experiments you intend to research.

[Streetwind]

It's a game logic thing. Let me try and help you understand the mechanics:

 

The process through which experiments are added to the R&D archives is intimately tied to recovering or transmitting individual experiments. Those recoveries or transmissions come tagged with the situation and experiment info ("goo observation while landed in the Mun's midland craters"), so the game knows what to file them under.

With the mobile processing lab, things work differently. It's not merely about Squad not implementing a link to the R&D archives; it's that this is literally not possible. When you process an experiment to add it to the lab, that experiment's report becomes a raw data value that is added to the internal pool of data that the lab has. And that internal pool simply says: "there is now 433 out of 750 points of data storage". Then the lab begins converting 1 data into 5 science at a speed dependant on the Kerbal scientists present. So, let's say the lab transformed 100 of those 433 data points into science, and you go and transmit 500 science points to Kerbin.

How would the game know what experiments went into those 500 science points? Even if the lab kept track of a list of experiments entered into it, there's no way for the game to know which point of data was processed to make science. It's like, you have five glasses of water, and pour them all into a bucket. Now someone comes and tells you: retrieve for me the fourth glass of water from that bucket. What would you tell that person? You'd probably question their intelligence. Even if you had labeled your glasses, and kept meticulous record of the order in which you poured them in, it is still physically impossible for you to identify the contents of any specific glass of water afterwards. All identity information was permanently lost the moment you poured it in.

The same is true for the lab: all identity information is permanently lost the moment you process an experiment, regardless of whether or not you keep track of what you entered when.

Even if you went and made a R&D archive entry the moment you processed the experiment, it doesn't work properly, because you don't know for sure whether or not you're actually going to get any of that science back to Kerbin. You'd have an archive entry with an empty bar - and the game has no way to tell at which point it should start filling it in.

 

So basically, in order for this to work, Squad would have to completely delete everything about the mobile processing lab, and re-develop it from the ground up in a way that is completely different from what it is today.

That is a lot of development effort, and a lot of effort from a huge playerbase that has to re-learn new mechanics, just for a minor annoyance. Which only affects a tiny subset of the playerbase in the first place, because right now, the MPL does not prevent you from also recovering/transmitting another copy of the same science, which is then added to the archives as normal. So the vast majority of people still get all their R&D archive entries just fine - they just get some extra untagged science from the lab as well.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Streetwind

[Jonfliesgoats]

OMG!  I love this idea so much!  I mean these Kerbals can figure out how to contain nuclear fission, train pilots and spend vast treasures trying to divine the mysteries of the cosmos.  Still they can't figure out how to hire a librarian to hang around the R and D building with a ham radio listening to chatter coming in from distant laboratories?

Good science requires good records.  Right now the mobile labs have no lab notes.

[Clancy]

On 10/6/2016 at 7:29 AM, Streetwind said:

...

So basically, in order for this to work, Squad would have to completely delete everything about the mobile processing lab, and re-develop it from the ground up in a way that is completely different from what it is today.

...

The game does keep track though, because you can't process the same experiment in the same lab twice, so it must be keeping a record somewhere of what experiments have been processed in what lab.

The problem is that there would then be multiple checklists: One for R&D and one for each Mobile Lab currently in the game. It would be nice to know what experiments would be worth gathering, but it would also get unreasonably complex once you have several labs all over the system. The R&D archives are hard enough to navigate as it is.

[Streetwind]

2 hours ago, Clancy said:

The game does keep track though, because you can't process the same experiment in the same lab twice, so it must be keeping a record somewhere of what experiments have been processed in what lab.

The problem is that there would then be multiple checklists: One for R&D and one for each Mobile Lab currently in the game. It would be nice to know what experiments would be worth gathering, but it would also get unreasonably complex once you have several labs all over the system. The R&D archives are hard enough to navigate as it is.

You still wouldn't get a properly kept record, because the game doesn't know if/when you ever transmit the science for that experiment. So at best you would get a record with an empty progress bar that never fills (unless you recover/transmit the thing).

Edited October 7, 2016 by Streetwind

[StahnAileron]

2 hours ago, Clancy said:

The game does keep track though, because you can't process the same experiment in the same lab twice, so it must be keeping a record somewhere of what experiments have been processed in what lab.

But KSP still doesn't know what science corresponds with what science data. As @Streetwind notes (EDIT: Speak of the devil... I got ninja'ed), it just pools everything together. It knows what went in, but it can't tag what comes out due to the pooling. If players were comfortable with randomized output, then maybe the Lab could award R&D archive data as it transmits the equivalent of science for the data amount of an experiment. Problem there is that each experiment contributes a different data count to the lab, so at what point would the Lab know when to trigger an R&D entry? And of course there's accounting for data being added part way through processing.

I guess it COULD just pick one entry, work on it, flag it as done, then randomly select another entry, repeat... They'd still have to rewrite the whole lab system to account for all that.

But really, the science system is pretty inane. As a process to drive progress in career it makes no sense. (Examine dirt => Gain new rocket engines...???? Take temperature reading => Gain probe core...???? I know it's abstracted in the end, but it breaks suspension of disbelief for me.)

If basic R&D for new part was fund-driven (much like real life...), it'd give more meaning to contracts. (Otherwise, funds are mainly a restriction on craft size/design.) Science driving improvements to tech (like the supposed upgrade system) would make a little more sense. I can see science as a bonus to R&D rather than being the main driver of it.

 

[Clancy]

I agree that tying the experiment to data transmitted would be awkward and difficult at best. You could have it cross it off the checklist as soon as each experiment is processed in the lab, but I'm not sure that you would really want that. Then how would you know if the experiment still had value when you return it to KSC?

Personally, what I want is a better way to know if experiments have been processed in a given lab or not. So, if I just landed on the Mun's East Crater and done a bunch of science, I can look in R&D to see how much Science they would be worth if I carted them back to Kerbin, but I can't know whether any of my various bases and stations have processed that data until I bring it there