[1.12.x] Konstruction! Weldable ports, servos, cranes, and magnets!

[agrock]

1 hour ago, RoverDude said:

i.e. what is the specific use case for joining a non-construction port to a construction port?  If you want to do traditional docking, use regular docking ports.  Construction ports are meant to be transient parts used only for the purpose of welding two vessels together permanently.  

Yes, I think some people (like me) misunderstood it: as Construction Ports were "better docking ports", that is meant mainly for docking and only secondly for welding. By looking at parts description, its not obvious that they are not really meant for... docking.

You should edit parts descriptions to add a warning about this.

[Nergal8617]

1 hour ago, RoverDude said:

Construction ports are meant to be transient parts used only for the purpose of welding two vessels together permanently.

This is what I use them for, mainly in orbital station construction; all of my stations get constructed by remote before the crew ever gets sent up.

[goldenpsp]

3 hours ago, RoverDude said:

The question still remains why.

i.e. what is the specific use case for joining a non-construction port to a construction port?  If you want to do traditional docking, use regular docking ports.  Construction ports are meant to be transient parts used only for the purpose of welding two vessels together permanently.  

Well actually I can think of one.  I often send up an "assembly tug" craft when putting together my orbital station in LKO.  It is essentially a small craft with tons of RCS, a large docking port on one end and a regular one on the other.  I would then send up station sections on a launch, get it close and then break the sections apart.  At that point the tug would dock with each section and maneuver the sections into place.

With construction ports I was forced to send up 2 tugs, as my station would be a mix of construction ports (for welding together) and regular ports (for allowing ships to dock).  Since the parts don't work interchangeably I would need a tug with each type of port depending on the part I was moving into position.

Granted it may be an uncommon use case but it is an example.

This is a super old picture, but you can see the assembly tug docked on the right side of the station.

[jinks]

3 hours ago, RoverDude said:

The question still remains why.

i.e. what is the specific use case for joining a non-construction port to a construction port?

For me, the use case is usually temporary parking. I.e. I have a crew on engineers that need to do some construction and I don't want to leave their transport drifting in space. The station core is at this point just a cupola and a 6-way hub covered in construction ports. For a normal rocket I can just use a construction port and not weld it, but this excludes spaceplanes and inline ports.

 

Another case that I had happen once was that I had to shuffle some modules around and the ports (a mix of normal ports for ships and construction ports for future expansion) would not line up in any way so I could park that module to make room.

[DStaal]

24 minutes ago, goldenpsp said:

Well actually I can think of one.  I often send up an "assembly tug" craft when putting together my orbital station in LKO.  It is essentially a small craft with tons of RCS, a large docking port on one end and a regular one on the other.  I would then send up station sections on a launch, get it close and then break the sections apart.  At that point the tug would dock with each section and maneuver the sections into place.

With construction ports I was forced to send up 2 tugs, as my station would be a mix of construction ports (for welding together) and regular ports (for allowing ships to dock).  Since the parts don't work interchangeably I would need a tug with each type of port depending on the part I was moving into position.

Hmm.  I was just thinking of doing something similar - I'm getting a fair amount of junk in Minmus/Mun orbit as the result of transfer stages, and was planning on building a reusable tug - with the first real use being to haul parts of a space station into Minmus orbit.

That said, with a bit of planning I don't think I'm likely to need two tugs because of ports - it's more likely I'll want two or more because of transit times.

[RoverDude]

Ok, yeah I can see some of those cases making sense.

Another concern is going to be the support requests with mismatched ports

[goldenpsp]

7 minutes ago, DStaal said:

Hmm.  I was just thinking of doing something similar - I'm getting a fair amount of junk in Minmus/Mun orbit as the result of transfer stages, and was planning on building a reusable tug - with the first real use being to haul parts of a space station into Minmus orbit.

That said, with a bit of planning I don't think I'm likely to need two tugs because of ports - it's more likely I'll want two or more because of transit times.

Well I actually had both (in that picture).  The small one on the right was my assembly tug.  The one hanging below it was a crew transfer tug that could go between LKO the Mun and/or minmus.  And actually thats a good old picture because the space plane was my reusable crew transfer ship to bring them up and down from the station.

2 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

Ok, yeah I can see some of those cases making sense.

Another concern is going to be the support requests with mismatched ports

Yea honestly I figured that was the main reason you left it the way it currently is.  I imagine not only would you have to make it so they were compatible but also have code to disallow welding so people didn't accidentally try to weld when both were not the construction ports.  I can see that being extra work for an edge case.

These days I just use construction ports all the time and am careful to not weld what I don't want to be stuck together. 

[RoverDude]

Oh it's easy enough to prevent accidental welding, just more of an issue of people griping because they can't weld a construction port to a non construction port... at which point I expect there would be a request for 'all things weldable' followed by us going completely in a circle

[agrock]

3 hours ago, jinks said:

Another case that I had happen once was that I had to shuffle some modules around and the ports (a mix of normal ports for ships and construction ports for future expansion) would not line up in any way so I could park that module to make room.

One can put CP instead on some ships... but there is no CP equivalent for inline Mk2 or OPT J ports...

ALSO docking ports attach radially while CP only stack. Important detail.

3 hours ago, goldenpsp said:

These days I just use construction ports all the time and am careful to not weld what I don't want to be stuck together. 

After assembling a space station from 12 modules I came to conclusion that I need another 6 and station is already assembled. It pays off to dock but not weld just yet, in case of reassembly needed.

1 hour ago, RoverDude said:

Oh it's easy enough to prevent accidental welding, just more of an issue of people griping because they can't weld a construction port to a non construction port... at which point I expect there would be a request for 'all things weldable' followed by us going completely in a circle

No one asks for welding hybrid ports... but docking is implied by the mod description and parts description.

I would ask that you put a warning into descriptions so that new people know these arent dockable.

Edited November 21, 2017 by agrock

[agrock]

16 hours ago, WuphonsReach said:

https://github.com/UmbraSpaceIndustries/MKS/wiki/Parts-(Konstruction)#pal-part-movers

As long as the PAL mover part is within 12m of the thing you are moving, the kerbal on EVA can just pick the piece up and move it (assuming that you also have KIS and KAS installed).

https://github.com/UmbraSpaceIndustries/MKS/blob/master/FOR_RELEASE/GameData/UmbraSpaceIndustries/Konstruction/KIS.cfg

The PAL Magnet part is my preference as it allows the kerbal to move up to 10t while EVA'd.  I don't remember if two of the PAL parts stack in their effect (so you can lift 20t) and kerbals can already lift 1t on EVA (total of 21?).  So put two of the PAL magnets on a rover, park it at the job site, move things around with KIS/KAS.

 

Tested it on the ground. A magnet crane adds 6 tons (not 10) but several cranes do add up. Cant tell if it adds more in space than on ground.

[DStaal]

2 minutes ago, agrock said:

Tested it on the ground. A magnet crane adds 6 tons (not 10) but several cranes do add up. Cant tell if it adds more in space than on ground.

They'll add the same amount of carry weight in the ground or space.  The different parts have both different carry weights they can add, and different ranges they can help with.  The crane, for instance, adds 6 tons lifting, but can help with 16 meters.  The magnet helps with 10 tons, but only reaches to 10 meters.  The forklift can help carry 22 tons - but only reaches 6 meters.

Multiple parts will stack effect (just like multiple Kerbals will stack effect), but they all have to be in range.  And note that's the range from the *center* of the part - A 5m container is more than 6 meters from the end to the center, so a crane at it's endcap can't help you, though the same crane next to the side probably could.  This tends to impose a limit to how big a part that you can move around usefully.  (Similarly, using it in space requires all the parts to stay close together while you're working.  Not always the easiest thing to manage.)

[RoverDude]

1 hour ago, agrock said:

After assembling a space station from 12 modules I came to conclusion that I need another 6 and station is already assembled. It pays off to dock but not weld just yet, in case of reassembly needed.

Already supported.

1 hour ago, agrock said:

No one asks for welding hybrid ports... but docking is implied by the mod description and parts description.

To the first point.  Long experience shows that inter-port welding is what people are going to assume, and it's going to be a support headache.  The ability to dock is clearly shown - but nowhere does it imply you can dock with other ports... construction ports dock with eachother.  This is consistent with other mods with alternate docking ports (inter-port compatibility is the exception not the norm).

1 hour ago, agrock said:

I would ask that you put a warning into descriptions so that new people know these arent dockable.

You've asked twice, and I disagree on the necessity of this.

[McFortner]

9 hours ago, goldenpsp said:

Well actually I can think of one.  I often send up an "assembly tug" craft when putting together my orbital station in LKO.  It is essentially a small craft with tons of RCS, a large docking port on one end and a regular one on the other.  I would then send up station sections on a launch, get it close and then break the sections apart.  At that point the tug would dock with each section and maneuver the sections into place.

I do that a lot too.  I like to keep the tug attached so I don't have to hunt it down after it's drifted off and waste fuel/monopropellant getting it back to my station all over again.  That and I like to do like they did with the ISS and have a "construction crew" up there after the first few parts are in place to help with the rest of the assembly.  Not necessary, but fun.

 

 

[agrock]

@RoverDude  Fine, fine.  

You should be aware that I found Construction Ports buggy... sometimes undock function just doesnt work... sometimes it does undock but a different port than the selected. I am still trying to pinpoint when that happens (seems kinda randomly). 

[RoverDude]

5 hours ago, agrock said:

@RoverDude  Fine, fine.  

You should be aware that I found Construction Ports buggy... sometimes undock function just doesnt work... sometimes it does undock but a different port than the selected. I am still trying to pinpoint when that happens (seems kinda randomly). 

Any docking issue you have is stock.  They are quite literally an exact copy of a stock docking port with an extra part module. 

[agrock]

On 21.11.2017 at 5:45 PM, DStaal said:

The crane, for instance, adds 6 tons lifting, but can help with 16 meters.  The magnet helps with 10 tons, but only reaches to 10 meters.  The forklift can help carry 22 tons - but only reaches 6 meters.

I misunderstood Magnetic Coupler with a Magnetic Pad... which does not add carry at all.

You did not mention the Manipulator Crane, does it add carry too?

[Aelfhe1m]

2 hours ago, agrock said:

I misunderstood Magnetic Coupler with a Magnetic Pad... which does not add carry at all.

You did not mention the Manipulator Crane, does it add carry too?

The parts that affect KIS/KAS carry are:

Part                      Range   Extra mass

PAL Manipulator Claw      12m     10t
PAL Magnetic Coupler      12m     10t
PAL Magnetic Manipulator  10m     6t
PAL Crane                 16m     6t
PAL Forklift              6m      22t

 

[Kerbal Pig]

On 11/11/2017 at 5:37 PM, RoverDude said:

@Kerbal Pig - all of them

Sorry, but I am not sure what you mean...

Do all mods work with 1.3.1, or do all mods need update?

Sorry again for stupid question

[goldenpsp]

1 hour ago, Kerbal Pig said:

Sorry, but I am not sure what you mean...

Do all mods work with 1.3.1, or do all mods need update?

Sorry again for stupid question

you could just check the change log link in the op to see that it is updated for 1.3.1 and hence infer they are all updated for 1.3.1

 

 

[Kerbal Pig]

14 minutes ago, goldenpsp said:

you could just check the change log link in the op to see that it is updated for 1.3.1 and hence infer they are all updated for 1.3.1

 

 

Thank you!

Will do that now.

5 minutes ago, Kerbal Pig said:

Thank you!

Will do that now.

Okay, I feel stupid now...

Thank you very much for the help!

[agrock]

On 22.11.2017 at 6:51 AM, RoverDude said:

Any docking issue you have is stock.  They are quite literally an exact copy of a stock docking port with an extra part module. 

I think that I found a cause and solution to my docking problems... at least some of them... 

It seems that docking ports need to separate by about 10 meters before they can be redocked. This would seem like a reasonable safety system that would make undocking ships not immediately redock. 

[KerbalSpaceJockey]

Album kR80j will appear when post is submitted

I'm using construction ports for the first time and am seeing some strange behavior. After compressing some ports it looks like the parts are disconnected, but there's really just one ship. If I flip to map view then back to staging view then the parts look connected as I'd expect. Even weirder, every time I drop out of time warp phantom construction ports go flying off of the ship. They don't show up as debris. So far it seems like this is just cosmetic. I haven't found a functional problem.

The ship was built in the VAB and then cheated into orbit. It has a central core with arms connecting outer modules. The inner pairs of ports compress as I'd expect. The outer pairs have the strange artifacts. The same thing happens whether I use Compress or Multi-weld. Maybe there's something unexpected about the parent relationships since this was built in the VAB and not assembled in orbit?

Thanks for any info on what might contribute to this weirdness.

Album https://imgur.com/a/kR80j will appear when post is submitted

 

Edited November 24, 2017 by KerbalSpaceJockey
Fix link

[goldenpsp]

13 minutes ago, KerbalSpaceJockey said:

I'm using construction ports for the first time and am seeing some strange behavior. After compressing some ports it looks like the parts are disconnected, but there's really just one ship. If I flip to map view then back to staging view then the parts look connected as I'd expect. Even weirder, every time I drop out of time warp phantom construction ports go flying off of the ship. They don't show up as debris. So far it seems like this is just cosmetic. I haven't found a functional problem.

The ship was built in the VAB and then cheated into orbit. It has a central core with arms connecting outer modules. The inner pairs of ports compress as I'd expect. The outer pairs have the strange artifacts. The same thing happens whether I use Compress or Multi-weld. Maybe there's something unexpected about the parent relationships since this was built in the VAB and not assembled in orbit?

Thanks for any info on what might contribute to this weirdness.

Album https://imgur.com/a/kR80j will appear when post is submitted

 

 

Imgur link is a 404.  Do you use Tweakscale?

[KerbalSpaceJockey]

4 minutes ago, goldenpsp said:

Imgur link is a 404.  Do you use Tweakscale?

Ok, I can't seem to insert the link as an album correctly. Here's a plain ol' link - https://imgur.com/a/kR80j

I'm not using Tweakscale. I've just started using mods that add non-stock parts. In addition to Konstruction I'm using KIS, KAS, and Planetary Base Systems.

[Mandella]

On 11/21/2017 at 4:46 AM, agrock said:

Yes, I think some people (like me) misunderstood it: as Construction Ports were "better docking ports", that is meant mainly for docking and only secondly for welding. By looking at parts description, its not obvious that they are not really meant for... docking.

You should edit parts descriptions to add a warning about this.

Just as a heads up, IIRC Angel-125 has a few docking ports in his DSEV pack which might do what you want. The Mk1 and Mk2 ports will dock normally with the Clampotron Jr and regular Clampotron respectively, and has a welding option for when attached to other Mk1 and Mk2 ports.

 

I'm not able to check right now, but if not there check his M.O.L.E. pack.