[1.12.x] Landertrons (Automatic Landing Retro-Rockets) v1.3.0 (02021 Sep 06)

[Bit Fiddler]

I have been trying to do something with the HexCan mod.  but i cant seem to get it to work.   i see ytou are using one of the HexCans for a solid Fuel tank.  so i am wondering what you had to do to get it to work.   is there some sort of meta data inside the .mu file that requires the part to be in a specific directory?  if i try to use the HexCan either from the original Hexcan mod or the hexcan from landertron it will not appear in the game.

 

all i can think of is the .mu file somehow specifies some directory information.

 

[Jiraiyah]

45 minutes ago, Bit Fiddler said:

I have been trying to do something with the HexCan mod.  but i cant seem to get it to work.   i see ytou are using one of the HexCans for a solid Fuel tank.  so i am wondering what you had to do to get it to work.   is there some sort of meta data inside the .mu file that requires the part to be in a specific directory?  if i try to use the HexCan either from the original Hexcan mod or the hexcan from landertron it will not appear in the game.

 

all i can think of is the .mu file somehow specifies some directory information.

 

did anyone ever picked up hex can mod? last version i checked was for 0.25 ?

[Bit Fiddler]

no that is why i was trying to see if i could get some of the bits working again.  i used these parts in many of my designs

 

[Kerbas_ad_astra]

On 2/3/2018 at 7:31 AM, Bit Fiddler said:

I have been trying to do something with the HexCan mod.  but i cant seem to get it to work.   i see ytou are using one of the HexCans for a solid Fuel tank.  so i am wondering what you had to do to get it to work.   is there some sort of meta data inside the .mu file that requires the part to be in a specific directory?  if i try to use the HexCan either from the original Hexcan mod or the hexcan from landertron it will not appear in the game.

 

all i can think of is the .mu file somehow specifies some directory information.

 

Usually, the part loader assumes that a model and its textures are in the same directory as the config file, but the config file can override that and specify a directory elsewhere.  (Which HexCans does.)  Like so:

[...]

MODEL
{
	model		=	Landertron/Parts/HexCanSolidFuel/HexCan
	texture		=	HexCan000, Landertron/Parts/HexCanSolidFuel/SF
	[...]
}

[...]

However, I just grabbed HexCans straight from the source (for KSP 0.25), and it loaded in KSP 1.3.1 just fine: https://github.com/Greys0/HexCans

Be sure you've just put the 'HexCans' folder in your GameData folder and you should be set.  There's definitely plenty of work to do to bring it up to date -- never mind localization and tags, but the nodes are all pointing in the wrong direction, so the parts attach to each other alright, but they'll try to snap to the insides of stock parts.  Good luck!

[Bit Fiddler]

well sort of off topic here as not really about the Landertrons...  but i did this to begin with, and it did not work for me.   i guess i will have to go and redo it and be sure i did not miss something.

[jrolson]

This mod doesn't work for me.

When using soft landing mode, my rocket decelerates slowly and just hovers with the engine turning off, on, off, ect. far from the ground.

 

[Kerbas_ad_astra]

Can you get me a craft file and a list of mods you're running?

[jrolson]

14 minutes ago, Kerbas_ad_astra said:

Can you get me a craft file and a list of mods you're running?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/dbgtjv8dcozhmvl/Test.craft?dl=0

• Chatterer
• CollisionFX
• DistantObject
• DockRotate
• EnvironmentalVisualEnhancements
• KerbalReusabilityExpansion
• Landertron
• MouseAimFlight
• NavBallDockingAlignmentIndicatorCE
• ScifiVisualEnchancements
• TweakScale
• WaypointManager
• ModuleManager.3.0.2

Edited February 10, 2018 by jrolson

[Kerbas_ad_astra]

There's a weakness in the math that Landertron does that doesn't behave very well with low TWR vessels.  When two of those tanks are empty, your rocket lands easily.  (I've put that in the 'known issues' section of the OP, since I've been grappling with that for a while now.)

I hope you don't mind if I 'think out loud' in some detail on the issue.

To determine when it fires, the Landertron calculates a predicted final speed if the vehicle were to hit the ground without firing its engine (basically from energy conservation -- Vf = sqrt(Vi^2 + 2gh)), and then divides that speed by the acceleration that the engines can sustain (thrust minus gravity, all over current mass), and then 'propagates' that time up from the ground to get an altitude where it should start firing.

When predicting the final speed and optimal firing altitude, the module assumes that the vessel is free-falling without atmospheric drag, and when computing the burn time, the module assumes that the vessel's TWR remains constant (i.e. neglecting that the vehicle will get lighter as fuel is burned).  These assumptions are conservative, meaning that the vessel will always overestimate how long it should fire its engines, which is good because it will never fire "too late" -- the vessel will come to a complete stop above the surface, and if you're using the landertron box, it will cut thrust and re-arm itself for a second burn when it falls further.  However, the error from those assumptions is magnified when the TWR is low, and the particular issue is that the vehicle gets into a situation where the predicted altitude to fire is above the current altitude (i.e. it thinks it's "too late", so it should start firing), but it's also stopped falling vertically (so it should stop firing and fall some more).

I don't know a way around these issues -- they're both nonlinear, depend on the vessel, and vary during the course of the landing burn, so I'd basically have to write a simulator and use it to figure out when to light the engines...that's going to get expensive in terms of computation cycles and development time.  I've been trying to find a simple compromise to handle atmospheric drag and terminal velocity, but my efforts so far have turned out to underestimate firing time for low-TWR vessels, which I think is a cure worse than the disease.

tl;dr the solution is moar boosters.

[DStaal]

As a thought - what happens if the box *doesn't* re-arm itself?  I assume it's going to stop a bit above the ground and then fall the rest of the way, but is that a bad thing?  I mean, if that final fall is within tolerance of your landing legs (or your ship itself - or you can afford some ablative landing gear), you should be fine...

[Kerbas_ad_astra]

Aw, but that's the best part about the box!  Swoossshhhhhh....foomp!

[Bit Fiddler]

was I mistaken, and landertron is not the mod that supplied the solidfuel hexcan "to refuel landertrons"?  as I am looking in the landertorn folder for that part's .cfg and I do not find it.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Bit Fiddler

[Kerbas_ad_astra]

3 hours ago, Bit Fiddler said:

was I mistaken, and landertron is not the mod that supplied the solidfuel hexcan "to refuel landertrons"?  as I am looking in the landertorn folder for that part's .cfg and I do not find it.

No, this is the place: https://github.com/Kerbas-ad-astra/XTLandertron/blob/master/GameData/Landertron/Parts/HexCanSolidFuel/HexCanSolidFuel.cfg

[Bit Fiddler]

oh sorry I found them....  I had somehow deleted that folder but I just opened the .zip and there they were.

 

oh and speaking of hex cans...  I am trying to revive the hex can mod.  and I had a few questions...

did you redo all the unity stuff for your mod?  or just pull the parts right in.   well actually no matter how you did it could you help me out a bit with the unity import phase of 3D mesh to KSP?

 

Edited February 11, 2018 by Bit Fiddler

[Kerbas_ad_astra]

The parts just worked for me.  Same for when I tried Hex Cans the other day.

I don't have any expertise in importing models to KSP.  You should check out the Add-on Development forum.

[Bit Fiddler]

ah ok I figure your mod had some parts so you may have done it.

[Don0303]

does anyone know if this works with 1.4?

[JAFO]

5 hours ago, Don0303 said:

does anyone know if this works with 1.4?

Have you considered testing it out for yourself, instead of being lazy and asking to be spoon-fed the answer?

[Don0303]

8 hours ago, JAFO said:

Have you considered testing it out for yourself, instead of being lazy and asking to be spoon-fed the answer?

sorry, I'm just not very confident with this kind of thing and was worried about damaging my computer. I was just wondering if anyone else had already tried it. 

Edited March 21, 2018 by Don0303

[Bit Fiddler]

not a very helpful reply in any case, as it may take hundreds of hours of testing to find that one instance it does not work.  therefore, if others have done this work already, there is no reason to have another person do it again.   if this was the case every time a car manufacturer wanted to build a new car they would go and reinvent the wheel.

 

no need to get rude just because you can hide behind the anonymity of the internet.  after all, that is the reason Web forums were invented...  for people to ask questions, and get answers, so they do not need to waste their time doing all the research themselves.   may as well just ask for the forums to taken offline and replaced with download links to the mods and nothing else

[JAFO]

13 hours ago, Don0303 said:

sorry, I'm just not very confident with this kind of thing and was worried about damaging my computer. I was just wondering if anyone else had already tried it. 

Computers are a lot harder to damage than many people think.. at worst the game might crash and you'd have to remove the mod before restarting.

11 hours ago, Bit Fiddler said:

 it may take hundreds of hours of testing to find that one instance it does not work.  therefore, if others have done this work already

Proving my point above. And how exactly is that "one instance" found? By many people installing and testing the mod for themselves.

11 hours ago, Bit Fiddler said:

no need to get rude just because you can hide behind the anonymity of the internet.  after all, that is the reason Web forums were invented...  for people to ask questions, and get answers, so they do not need to waste their time doing all the research themselves.   may as well just ask for the forums to taken offline and replaced with download links to the mods and nothing else

Just as you have a low tolerance for what you consider "rudeness", I have a low tolerance for people who can't be bothered to find out the answer to simple problems for themselves, instead expecting everything to be handed to them on a plate. Guess I spend too much time on Quora, maybe, where such behaviour is rampant. And there's a lot more to the forums than questions and links about mods.

KSP is supposed to be all about encouraging experimentation and testing for oneself, but when it comes to mods and new releases of the game, it seems the lesson just doesn't sink in for some folks.

Edited March 21, 2018 by JAFO

[Don0303]

49 minutes ago, JAFO said:

Computers are a lot harder to damage than many people think.. at worst the game might crash and you'd have to remove the mod before restarting.

Proving my point above. And how exactly is that "one instance" found? By many people installing and testing the mod for themselves.

Just as you have a low tolerance for what you consider "rudeness", I have a low tolerance for people who can't be bothered to find out the answer to simple problems for themselves, instead expecting everything to be handed to them on a plate. Guess I spend too much time on Quora, maybe, where such behaviour is rampant. And there's a lot more to the forums than questions and links about mods.

KSP is supposed to be all about encouraging experimentation and testing for oneself, but when it comes to mods and new releases of the game, it seems the lesson just doesn't sink in for some folks.

ok i tested it myself

[JAFO]

8 hours ago, Don0303 said:

ok i tested it myself

Sincerely, that's good to hear.. 

Might I trouble you to share what you've found out from your testing? That too, is kind of the point of having a forum.
(in case you were wondering, I don't use the mod myself, but I do follow it, as I find the concept interesting)

[Don0303]

55 minutes ago, JAFO said:

Sincerely, that's good to hear.. 

Might I trouble you to share what you've found out from your testing? That too, is kind of the point of having a forum.
(in case you were wondering, I don't use the mod myself, but I do follow it, as I find the concept interesting)

Have you considered testing it out for yourself?

[JAFO]

16 hours ago, Don0303 said:

Have you considered testing it out for yourself?

Heheheh.. touché.. nice try, but I was asking on behalf of those other users who might be wondering.. not for myself.

 

No.. I won't be testing it.. like I said, I don't use the mod any more. Haven't for a long time. So why would I test it? That's for those that use it.

(and I didn't stop using it because I had problems with it.. it just doesn't fit my playstyle and ended up being unused. So it made no sense to have it cluttering up my parts catalogue.)

Edited March 23, 2018 by JAFO