To Mech-Jeb or not to Mech-Jeb, that is the question...

[Bagg]

I only use MechJeb for the rendezvous information and if I don't want to go into orbit for the thousandth time. However I recommend you only use it once you have the hang of flying manually and take breaks from it once in a while. I learned that the hard way when I forgot how to get into orbit in 0.16 due to the automation.

[LegitBro]

I've gotten to all the planets except moho without mechjeb. I tried it out yesterday and I decided to only use mechjeb for getting into orbit and landing

[nhnifong]

I've gotten to all the planets except moho without mechjeb. I tried it out yesterday and I decided to only use mechjeb for getting into orbit and landing

Moho is very hard to get to. I've made it before twice with stock or at least fairish parts and only used mechjeb for smart A.S.S., but didn't have the fuel to do an orbit capture (so I docked with ion craft and used those to push the incoming craft into orbit.) I have ion pushers in orbit around most bodies for this reason.

[ScramUK]

Install protractor and kerbal engineer redux.. Pretty much the same information (though likely laid out differently) but no autopilot.

Thank's for that - I'll give them a bash =D

[SNapple]

A very big and un-ignorable part of KSP is the "sense of achievement" part. MechJeb is nothing more than a removal of that. I'm sure most of us will know the feeling of landing of the Mun for the first time, but if you use MechJeb for that, than you will NEVER feel that amazing feeling. You will always miss out.

The problem here is that alot of people don't understand what a sense of achievement is. It's not about how much you enjoy the voyage, but how much you enjoy the pride. It's how the game can set off a wide variety of emotions, and stress just makes the rest more rewarding. If you don't experience unhappiness, you don't experience happiness.

[jhz3]

A very big and un-ignorable part of KSP is the "sense of achievement" part. MechJeb is nothing more than a removal of that. I'm sure most of us will know the feeling of landing of the Mun for the first time, but if you use MechJeb for that, than you will NEVER feel that amazing feeling. You will always miss out.

The problem here is that alot of people don't understand what a sense of achievement is. It's not about how much you enjoy the voyage, but how much you enjoy the pride. It's how the game can set off a wide variety of emotions, and stress just makes the rest more rewarding. If you don't experience unhappiness, you don't experience happiness.

I'm sorry, but that's your opinion. Some people, myself included, get far more of a sense of accomplishment from planning and executing elaborate missions and designing spacecraft. I'm glad you think you're right, but it's the way you think, not anyone else. I'm proud to say, "I designed that, I thought up a mission plan, I executed the mission, and returned my Kerbals safely from the void of space." I don't consider KSP to be a flight simulator, and it's too laggy for me anyway. MJ removes that stressor from the equation, so I can focus on putting little green men on colorful spheres.

[SNapple]

I'm sorry, but that's your opinion. Some people, myself included, get far more of a sense of accomplishment from planning and executing elaborate missions and designing spacecraft. I'm glad you think you're right, but it's the way you think, not anyone else. I'm proud to say, "I designed that, I thought up a mission plan, I executed the mission, and returned my Kerbals safely from the void of space." I don't consider KSP to be a flight simulator, and it's too laggy for me anyway. MJ removes that stressor from the equation, so I can focus on putting little green men on colorful spheres.

And thus it takes away most of the achievement. see the bold text on my last text.

[jhz3]

And thus it takes away most of the achievement. see the bold text on my last text.

So there's only one way to feel accomplished now? Huh, odd. I bet Michael Phelps and Usain Bolt both feel accomplished, even though they do different things. If you'd read and responded to my entire argument, the main thrust of it was we all have things we enjoy doing. I know people who only ever play single player in first person shooters, on easy, and feel accomplished. Just because you get a thrill flying a pixel spacecraft by hand does not mean I do, or should have to.

[AlternNocturn]

I don't use it as often any more, but I don't mind if people want to use it to completely automate everything. The point of the game is not to prove how well you can control a rocket. The point of the game is not to prove anything. If you don't want to fly your ship manually, then by all means, use MechJeb. I personally don't consider myself better than these people just because I choose to fly everything manually, just like I don't consider modern pilots better or worse than pilots that flew without computer assistance.

People have to realize that tools are created for a reason. If you don't need it, then just keep playing the game how you've been playing. If you think it'll help, install it, learn how to use it, and have fun with it. Again, the point of this game is not to be competitive and flaunt your achievements. You can do that, sure, that's why the Challenge forum was created, but don't use it in an argument that involves people simply playing a highly moddable game with mods.

EDIT: Also, let me just mention that I have used MechJeb many, many times in the past. In fact the only reason I could even fly rockets 100% manually now is because MechJeb taught me how to do everything. Still, it's the user's decision whether or not they want to stick to MechJeb or move on to flying everything manually.

Edited October 10, 2012 by AlternNocturn

[sal_vager]

The point of the game is to have fun

I prefer to hand-fly, as I find that fun, but I'll not look down on someone for using Mechjeb, I have used it myself (but I wont trust it to land me)

[Lord Crc]

So far I don't have the time to get into all the stuff needed for flying, so I'm just having fun designing whack rockets and see how they fly. As such I find Mech-Jeb very nice as I can set myself new goals for my crafts, and spend my time designing rather than calculating / flying.

I really like the sandbox nature of the sandbox mode, and hope it keeps this going forwards

[jhz3]

And that is what I was trying to say, in far fewer words. I don't mind other people's opinions, but when they say, "I am right and you can't feel accomplished because!", I get a bit defensive. It's a game, and a sandbox game at that.

[Beowolf]

I spent six hours last night tuning one of my designs. I launched that bird into the same orbit over 30 times, changing one tiny thing at a time. Every flight involved me noting about 20 different values in a spreadsheet. Without MechJeb's auto-ascent it wouldn't have been possible, as normal variations in a hand-flown ascent would have ruined my data.

So don't say MechJeb makes the game too easy. There are lots of games in our sandbox.

As for the hand-flying vs. automation in real-life argument, I've always been a computer history hobbyist and have read a fair bit about this topic. Mercury missions were flown from the ground, though the astronaut had manual overrides available. They had to fight NASA for those, as shown in an overly-dramatized scene in The Right Stuff.

Gemini missions were a mix, with the Gemini 8 orbital maneuvers calculated from ground then flown by-hand, but the approach for docking was fully automated by radar from 100 km leaving them stationary with the Agena target at 50 meters. The actual docking was manual, but consisted of a single, short forward burn. The automation had lined them up perfectly.

Gemini 10 tried calculating a rendezvous by-hand with a sextant and failed completely. The windows weren't transparent enough to use hand-held instruments. Timing, attitude and burn duration were calculated by radar with ground-based mainframes, and instructions transmitted by radio. But their attitude drifted a bit during the burn, and that tiny inclination error meant this ground-assisted manual rendezvous and docking used up 60% of the RCS fuel, rather than the single pulse needed last time.

Apollo added not only a built-in sextant but on-board computers that do pretty much everything MechJeb can do. Every command was a 4-digit number, though, so it isn't as friendly. Course corrections were calculated by mainframes then radioed to the spacecraft. Lunar module landing was completely automated from parking orbit to 600m, when it went into an automatic hover mode that let the astronaut move horizontally to choose a landing site. Landing from there was called "manual" but the computer was keeping the LM upright and buttons were preset for functions like "kill velocity" and "3fps descent". Moving the joysticks gave the computer direction, which it then translated into RCS pulses. All that automation didn't make it easy, only possible. NASA's experiences with the Lunar Lander Research Vehicle convinced them full manual control would never be safe.

A paper describing what "manual landing" in the lunar module really meant is available here:

http://www.princeton.edu/~stengel/LM.pdf

The shuttle had, for the very first time, a fully hands-on landing, and while astronauts loved it NASA hated it. The shuttle fleet was upgraded to full automatic landing capability in 2006. This was after Columbia's accident, with the intent being for a damaged shuttle to undock, reenter and land under remote control, leaving its crew on the ISS.

To my knowledge, only during Apollo 13 has anyone manually operated a rocket engine larger than an RCS in space, but it's sure a good thing they'd practiced. And nobody has ever hand-steered a rocket to orbit.

tl;dr? Nobody really manually drives a spacecraft except during experiments and emergencies. But emergencies happen.

With all that said, I fly by hand when I'm in the mood. It's a sandbox. Do what suits you.

[jebowlin72]

I actually learned quite alot about KSP from using Mech-jeb, and anilyzing over and over agin each and every launch. Now I use it for SHLs because my PC cant handle anything over 130+ parts with out it, the small stuff I try to pilot my self, also I use Mech-Jeb to check the stability of my SP designs.

[ScramUK]

I guess you simply get two types of people who play KSP and get their sense of enjoyment from accomplishing their goals in different ways.

Me? Well, I'm a trial & error kinda guy. For me the majority of the fun is simply getting there...or trying to.

And then there are those that enjoy creating their designs and using them to successfully accomplish their mission.

Automation has never detracted from this. Hell, even playing Flight Simulators, I would set up my FMC and do the entire flight automated almost; with the exception of landing - I just loved doing those myself. However, different games reward in different ways... In Flight Simulator, I enjoyed an authentic experience, accomplishing my flights, and getting a really soft landing; messing up was a pure frustration... especially since FSPAX made a log of your flight, killed your pilot and your companies reputation.

In KSP, I just enjoy ****ing up every bit as much as I enjoy bringing those Kerbals back in one piece. Primarily because it's simply a sandbox game at the moment, with no penalties for failure. When a career in KSP implemented, the source of my enjoyment is more likely to come from succeeding in missions...

However, while this is Kerbal Space Program, and not Orbiter for example; I am less likely to take the game as seriously somehow. I just love having fun with it. And to be honest, DAMN KSP is good fun. Orbiter is great, but KSP's accessibility, comic art-style and minimalistic UI makes it a winner for me.

You may also wish to check out orbiter if you haven't already done so...

It's free, and a pretty realistic space simulator with a GIANT modding scene.

Edited October 18, 2012 by ScramUK

[AmpsterMan]

I use MechJeb mainly when testing crafts. Why? For one, it is more consistent than I am. Two, I like to share my crafts with everyone on the forum and so I like to make sure that they are MechJeb Capable for people who like to use it.

Since there is no simulator room or computer room or whatever, I pretend that when I am using MechJeb it is actually Jeb sleeping and dreaming. This is why the manouvres are always perfect, no Kerbals ever die, and why he can continue to repeat the same thing over and over (savescumming) my real missions (IE the ones that aren't dreams) I tend to fly without MechJeb.

I really like both parts of this game, that is the flying and the building. MechJeb (and Kerbal Engineer) prove to be very useful tools that already give me information I already know how to acquire (I have a somewhat mundane job that doesn't require a lot of thinking so I do a lot of designing and calculating of delta-V in my head at work) in a very short time.

[SNapple]

MechJeb is bad for testing, as it is so consistent.

Manual operation is not as precise, so the craft will need to survive less precise things.

[stargazer1235]

Personally I don't really like mods. They change the core of the game. I really only use two mods, the protractor and DYJCrewtank for rescue missions. At one point I tried using the DEMV but didn't like as it was clunky. I too have used mechjeb once until 0.17 came out. I say that mechjeb isn't a bad thing but it does take the core game-play out. You bought KSP to fly spacecrafts, not let someone elses plugin do it for you. My rule of thumb is, if you have gone to every planet and moon, then you can use mechjeb.

[r_rolo1]

Personally I don't really like mods. They change the core of the game. I really only use two mods, the protractor and DYJCrewtank for rescue missions. At one point I tried using the DEMV but didn't like as it was clunky. I too have used mechjeb once until 0.17 came out. I say that mechjeb isn't a bad thing but it does take the core game-play out. You bought KSP to fly spacecrafts, not let someone elses plugin do it for you. My rule of thumb is, if you have gone to every planet and moon, then you can use mechjeb.

( bolded for emphasis )

Well, I got KSP to run a space program ( btw, that is even in the name of the game ... ). Flying by stick is a part of it, but automation is also another part. And, let's be honest, most of the real space programs missions have no crew at all ( that is, besides some ground inputs , they are fully automated ), so IMHO Mechjeb is only covering for a glaring omission by the devs part until this moment, that is the fact of not being able to run unmanned missions in the stock game and forcing the manned ones to be done by stick even when automation would be 1000% times better. Say, like the protractor mod covers for the lack of in-game stock angle measurements ...

[SNapple]

( bolded for emphasis )

Well, I got KSP to run a space program ( btw, that is even in the name of the game ... ). Flying by stick is a part of it, but automation is also another part. And, let's be honest, most of the real space programs missions have no crew at all ( that is, besides some ground inputs , they are fully automated ), so IMHO Mechjeb is only covering for a glaring omission by the devs part until this moment, that is the fact of not being able to run unmanned missions in the stock game and forcing the manned ones to be done by stick even when automation would be 1000% times better. Say, like the protractor mod covers for the lack of in-game stock angle measurements ...

But this isn't real life. It's not about realism. I don't understand why people think that is a good excuse.

[r_rolo1]

But this isn't real life. It's not about realism. I don't understand why people think that is a good excuse.

It is not a excuse. It is simply stating a fact that all real life space programs have automation ( and for good reasons ) and that KSP, as a space program simulator, should have it IMHO. Otherwise it is a poor space program simulator , like a flight simulator would be a poor one if you had to manually pump all the hydraulics of a 747 ...

Edited October 19, 2012 by r_rolo1

[PakledHostage]

IMHO Mechjeb is only covering for a glaring omission by the devs part until this moment, that is the fact of not being able to run unmanned missions in the stock game and forcing the manned ones to be done by stick even when automation would be 1000% times better. Say, like the protractor mod covers for the lack of in-game stock angle measurements ...

You make some good points. But to be fair, I don't think that the automated systems in KSP are that much better than us human pilots. I can give you at least one solid example showing that human pilots are entirely capable of flying better than MechJeb: Check out the Optimal Ascent Profile for this spacecraft challenge. The top three entries in the non-MechJeb category beat the best MechJeb assisted entry at that challenge.

And as for the Protractor mod, what people forget is that in the real world, your navigation systems are only as good as the accuracy of your position measurements. There is no uncertainty in the position measurements displayed by MechJeb and Protractor because the values they display are taken directly from the game. By contrast, ground controllers and the crew aboard Apollo 8 weren't entirely sure that they wouldn't hit the moon rather than fly by it when they flew there in 1968. This was despite the fact that they had all of their computers, automation and some of the smartest people in the world managing the flight. Even the stock game's map view eliminates that uncertainty.

[r_rolo1]

True on both but ...

First, when I was talking about automation being better, I'm not saying that it is more efficient per se ( not even in real life ). But it is definitely more reliable, because it doesn't rely on the fact that the human pilot will not sneeze at a critical time botching the whole deal . Mechjeb ascent autopilot ( and his landing autopilot as well, btw ) are awful ,especially on bodies with atmosphere, but they are reliable enough if you know what you're doing.

On the protractor ... well, in real life we would have the ability of knowing the longitude of what we were flying by by using charts or even via triangulation of radio signals, and both of then could be used to deduce the angles needed, especially combined with timestops and astronomical observation. Alternatively we have a big radio dish in KSC 1 and 2 for some reason That is why I said that both mod were stopping gaps: they aren't what should be there, but they are covering for faults of a game that is far from complete. I do not want either mechJeb or the protractor in the final version; I want some degree of automation, minimally accurate spatial position intel and the ability of planning a mission beforehand

[NASAFanboy]

I use it to do the boring jobs, inter-planetary transfers, achieveing orbit. I, myself, do the docking, orbital assemblies, and spcecaft design.

[Reaper Black]

For docking only because I'm not good at it yet and wanted to start a station. The MechJeb docking autopilot is jittery and tends to lose alignment as it's closing in but usually get's the job done. Better than me for now though.