totm may 2024 [1.12.x] - Modular Kolonization System (MKS)

[voicey99]

3 minutes ago, Alshain said:

I'm a little confused by Local vs Planetary Logistics.  Not how they operate but why you would ever choose Local.  I feel like there is probably a disadvantage to Planetary that I'm not aware of, but I'm curious why you would choose the option that requires you to have a pilot sitting around in a rover for limited range?

I'm about to land a Gypsum driller 1km away. So should I bring a rover and a pilot or not?

Local Logistics is not for long-distance transport, it's intended for shuttling resources between close-by bases without needing to link them all together physically or with PL. LL means a processor or a nearby vessel can pull resources from nearby containers into its own, process them and push resources from its container into others nearby if they are needed for/produced by a LL-enabled (i.e. MKS) processor. Rovers aren't needed for LL, they merely extend its sending range from 150m to 2km. The key advantage over PL it has it that it doesn't require a logistics-enabled module to push or one with a pilot or quartermaster (who can also pilot the rover) to operate-since what I've said so far is probably gibberish, I'll draw some diagrams if you give me a few mins.

[siimav]

9 minutes ago, Alshain said:

I'm a little confused by Local vs Planetary Logistics.  Not how they operate but why you would ever choose Local.  I feel like there is probably a disadvantage to Planetary that I'm not aware of, but I'm curious why you would choose the option that requires you to have a pilot sitting around in a rover for limited range?

I'm about to land a Gypsum driller 1km away. So should I bring a rover and a pilot or not?

The reasoning behind my decision was to have all the power generating done only in my main base. Power can be transmitted wirelessly up to 2km away. Also, nuclear reactors need maintenance once in a while. Although it looks like they can run on the same batch of fuel for more than 10 years.

[Alshain]

3 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

Local Logistics is not for long-distance transport, it's intended for shuttling resources between close-by bases without needing to link them all together physically or with PL. LL means a processor or a nearby vessel can pull resources from nearby containers into its own, process them and push resources from its container into others nearby if they are needed for/produced by a LL-enabled (i.e. MKS) processor. Rovers aren't needed for LL, they merely extend its sending range from 150m to 2km. The key advantage over PL it has it that it doesn't require a logistics-enabled module to push or one with a pilot or quartermaster (who can also pilot the rover) to operate-since what I've said so far is probably gibberish, I'll draw some diagrams if you give me a few mins.

Ok, you have me a little more confused.  The wiki describes it as Scavenging (150m), Local (2km), and Planetary (infinite).  I'm not talking about Scavenging, I understand the need for that.  I'm talking about Local.  Why would you do that instead of Planetary?

1 minute ago, siimav said:

The reasoning behind my decision was to have all the power generating done only in my main base. Power can be transmitted wirelessly up to 2km away. Also, nuclear reactors need maintenance once in a while. Although it looks like they can run on the same batch of fuel for more than 10 years.

I wasn't asking about your base, it was just a coincidence you posted above me on a similar topic.  I came up with the question before even visiting the thread today.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Alshain

[voicey99]

Just now, Alshain said:

Ok, you have me a little more confused.  The wiki describes it as Scavenging (150m), Local (2km), and Planetary (infinite).  I'm not talking about Scavenging, I understand the need for that.  I'm talking about Local.  Why would you do that instead of Planetary?

I don't understand that either, maybe LL is scavenging but with the range extended?

[siimav]

8 minutes ago, Alshain said:

I wasn't asking about your base, it was just a coincidence you posted above me on a similar topic.  I came up with the question before even visiting the thread today.

Did some poking around in the code and it looks like the planetary logistics has a 5% penalty for pushing resources to storage. Although that's small enough to not make much difference at all.

Edit: it looks like the penalty should also be applied for pulling from planetary. So 10% total for transferring from one base to another.

Edited July 9, 2017 by siimav

[Alshain]

22 minutes ago, voicey99 said:

I don't understand that either, maybe LL is scavenging but with the range extended?

Ok, so earlier in the thread you posted a picture of a drilling unit and said it was pushing to the planetary stockpile.  So the MPU can push to the stockpile, but only a Logistics Center/Module can pull from it when a pilot or quartermaster is present?  Am I understanding that correctly?

 

Because that would explain a good use for the 2km Local logistics.  If you have several bases (like more than 2) that need to consume within 2km, you only need one Logistics center.  If you have 2 bases, landing a second logistics center is just as difficult as a rover, but if you have 3 or more, 1 rover + 1 Logistics center would be a lot less costly.  So if you like to build your bases a little more spread out in the biome, it all makes sense that way.

Am I interpreting this correctly?

[voicey99]

1 minute ago, Alshain said:

Ok, so earlier in the thread you posted a picture of a drilling unit and said it was pushing to the planetary stockpile.  So the MPU can push to the stockpile, but only a Logistics Centre/Module can pull from it when a pilot or quartermaster is present?  Am I understanding that correctly?

Probably. MPUs and designated logistics modules can push to it at all times, but the only way to pull back from it with a manned logistics module.

1 minute ago, Alshain said:

Because that would explain a good use for the 2km Local logistics.  If you have several bases (like more than 2) that need to consume within 2km, you only need one Logistics centre.  If you have 2 bases, landing a second logistics centre is just as difficult as a rover, but if you have 3 or more, 1 rover + 1 Logistics centre would be a lot less costly.  So if you like to build your bases a little more spread out in the biome, it all makes sense that way.

Am I interpreting this correctly?

I also went looking in the wiki and from what little is there it looks like a rover can act as a central transfer hub for multiple resources and vessels (not needing to be attached to either the source or destination but requiring storage for the resources on board). Basically, it can take resources from any vessel under 2km from it and push them to any vessel under 2km from it (while this would make the max effective range 4km it's realistically 2.6km i.e. physics range since unloaded bases don't transfer). In doing this it gives you snappy logistics over greater distances than scavenging while not requiring a logistics module on every base or losing stuff in transit like the not-infallible PL.

[Nergal8617]

2 hours ago, Alshain said:

I'm about to land a Gypsum driller 1km away. So should I bring a rover and a pilot or not?

If you have an MPU on the drilling rig it can push to planetary logistics; even if you never turn on the converter or have any machinery in it.  That way you don't need a pilot or a logistics module.  The only time you need a pilot or quartermaster is when you want to pull materials out of planetary logistics.

[Alshain]

1 hour ago, Nergal8617 said:

If you have an MPU on the drilling rig it can push to planetary logistics; even if you never turn on the converter or have any machinery in it.  That way you don't need a pilot or a logistics module.  The only time you need a pilot or quartermaster is when you want to pull materials out of planetary logistics.

Good to know.  So what else, other than the MPU, is capable of Push only to the PL?  Lets make a list and fix the wiki page so others don't have to ask.

[voicey99]

1 minute ago, Alshain said:

Good to know.  So what else, other than the MPU, is capable of Push only to the PL?  Lets make a list and fix the wiki page so others don't have to ask.

Only the MPU is push only, other than the logistics module with no pilot/QM.

[Alshain]

1 minute ago, voicey99 said:

Only the MPU is push only, other than the logistics module with no pilot/QM.

Oh, ok.  Well then it's a short list, but still needs a mention on the wiki, unless I missed it somewhere.

[voicey99]

Just now, Alshain said:

Oh, ok.  Well then it's a short list, but still needs a mention on the wiki, unless I missed it somewhere.

I'm currently in the process of updating the wiki with more precise mechanics, I'll add it while I'm at it (note: I'm away from tomorrow until friday so you might not see it for a bit). On a side note, if you want to make something else into a PL module, use this cfg line:

MODULE
    {
        name = ModulePlanetaryLogistics
        PushOnly = true   //   include if it's to be push-only, otherwise it's push/pull (if manned)
    }

[Alshain]

Ok, well I just added a line, but you can certainly improve it.

I changed this:

Quote

Resources can be 'pushed' to planetary storage without Crew but require a 'Pilot' or 'QuarterMaster' to pull resources back out.

To this:

Quote

Resources can be 'pushed' to planetary storage without Crew provided a Logistics module or Material Processing Unit is present, but require a 'Pilot' or 'QuarterMaster' and a Logistics module to pull resources back out.

 

Edited July 9, 2017 by Alshain

[voicey99]

Updating an old wiki page on power mechanics, what's the default receive/transmit (if applicable) range on ModulePowerCoupler (or is it the range of the distributor) and do they send power as well?

I don't really understand the 'spaghetti explanation' currently on the page nor do I know if it's still correct.

Edited July 9, 2017 by voicey99

[siimav]

7 hours ago, siimav said:

I'm not sure what you mean but I'll try to explain it better.

* 2 bases in 1km proximity of each other 

* Main base has all the resource converters

* Mining base mines different kinds of metal ores because main base's biome does not have those

* Parked next to main base is a Karibou rover with a pilot

* Ores from mining base are pulled to the main base's storage and used by the resource converters

* Mining base produces more ore than is consumed by the resource converters. Excess ore is pushed to planetary storage.

* Issue: going to KSC -> warping time forward multiple days -> returning to my main base -> metals is set to 0. I can also briefly see that metallicOre is set to 0 in my main base and then it is again pulled from the mining base.

Did a bit more testing. Previously I had 'Planetary warehouse' enabled only on the storage of my mining base. Now I also checked it in my main base and am no longer getting the previously mentioned issue. So currently planetary logistics looks to be clearly the better-working option. Should probably ship a nuclear reactor in and move my mining base outside of the main base's physics range to also gain a couple of FPS in the process.

Edited July 9, 2017 by siimav

[voicey99]

25 minutes ago, siimav said:

Should probably ship a nuclear reactor in and move my mining base outside of the main base's physics range to also gain a couple of FPS in the process.

Careful doing that. When it's out of physrange, it won't be actively generating resources to send to your base so you will have to check back regularly to trigger catchup and build up the buffer.

Edited July 9, 2017 by voicey99

[Kobymaru]

16 hours ago, Alshain said:

I'm a little confused by Local vs Planetary Logistics.  Not how they operate but why you would ever choose Local.  I feel like there is probably a disadvantage to Planetary that I'm not aware of, but I'm curious why you would choose the option that requires you to have a pilot sitting around in a rover for limited range?

Planetary logistics requires you to have a logistics module with a pilot in every single vessel that participates in it. Also, last time I checked it only pulled/pushed once after load, but that might have been unintended behaviour (a bug).
Additionally, planetary logistics are pushed automatically when containers get full and pulled when they get empty. You have no way of specifying how much you want in a given container.

Local Logistics itself doesn't need a pilot sitting around in a rover, but resource distribution does, so I'm not sure which one you are referring to. If it's the former, then the advantage is that you can easily and manually (!) transfer as many resources as you want. If it's the latter, then the advantage is that resources get pulled out of containers with warehousing enabled without the need for a logistics module on that vessel.

 

16 hours ago, Alshain said:

I'm about to land a Gypsum driller 1km away. So should I bring a rover and a pilot or not?

Yes. If the distance is < 150m, you don't need one, then scavenging takes place. If the distance is > 150m and < 2km then resource distribution takes place, but that needs a rover.

[Kobymaru]

Hey guys, I am getting a NullReferenceException spam when I switch to my old base (constructed in 1.2.2) in KSP 1.3.0 with the newest MKS versions.

Does anyone else have this?

More details here: https://github.com/UmbraSpaceIndustries/UmbraSpaceIndustries/issues/118

[RoverDude]

@Kobymaru - Here's a link to two WIP DLLs... drop these in, let me know if the problem vanishes.

USI Tools:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cdcyx75xzq1fux9/USITools.dll?dl=0

Kolonization:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/w64zls80iqcitgv/KolonyTools.dll?dl=0

Edited July 10, 2017 by RoverDude

[Terwin]

4 hours ago, Kobymaru said:

Planetary logistics requires you to have a logistics module with a pilot in every single vessel that participates in it. Also, last time I checked it only pulled/pushed once after load, but that might have been unintended behaviour (a bug).
Additionally, planetary logistics are pushed automatically when containers get full and pulled when they get empty. You have no way of specifying how much you want in a given container.

Local Logistics itself doesn't need a pilot sitting around in a rover, but resource distribution does, so I'm not sure which one you are referring to. If it's the former, then the advantage is that you can easily and manually (!) transfer as many resources as you want. If it's the latter, then the advantage is that resources get pulled out of containers with warehousing enabled without the need for a logistics module on that vessel.

 

Yes. If the distance is < 150m, you don't need one, then scavenging takes place. If the distance is > 150m and < 2km then resource distribution takes place, but that needs a rover.

Logistics + pilot is only needed for pulls, mining stations are fine with either an empty logistics module or one of the unmanned refineries that were added recently, either option will provide push-only functionality.

[Kobymaru]

1 hour ago, RoverDude said:

@Kobymaru - Here's a link to two WIP DLLs... drop these in, let me know if the problem vanishes.

USI Tools:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cdcyx75xzq1fux9/USITools.dll?dl=0

Kolonization:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/w64zls80iqcitgv/KolonyTools.dll?dl=0

Looks good, no more NullRefs! Thanks for the prompt fix.

Out of curiosity, what was wrong?

[RoverDude]

Just now, Kobymaru said:

Looks good, no more NullRefs! Thanks for the prompt fix.

Out of curiosity, what was wrong?

Had to add some guard clauses - glad it got sorted, means I can push this as a general release

 

 

[Souly]

My game crash at every start (loading screen) after installing MKS =(

[RoverDude]

1 hour ago, Souly said:

My game crash at every start (loading screen) after installing MKS =(

Insufficient info.  Ksp version?  Mks version?

[Krakatoa]

1 hour ago, Souly said:

My game crash at every start (loading screen) after installing MKS =(

99 times out of 100, it seems that's because of a version mismatch or a bad install.  Would you mind posting a pic of your GameData folder or letting us know KSP version, MKS version, and your MM version?