Stuck on science right before moon landing

[vanillasnake21]

I seem to be stuck and I'm not sure what to do at this point. Just for reference where I am now, I've got 4 levels of science unlocked, just unlocked heavy rocketry and fueling systems on the 5th tier. However using the best engines, best fuel tanks my ship comes out extremely tall and extremely heavy, so staging wise I only have enough power to crash into the moon. I don't have enough tech to make a stage to retro softly into it, and don't have the landing tech yet. So I desperately need at least 300 science right now to unlock 2 upper levels of techs. However my current science is exactly 0.6, and I have absolutely no idea how to get more. I exhausted the goo, the thermometer, the barometer, the evas, the sci jr, now they all yield zero now. So what do I do? I noticed a few of my contracts yeild miniscule science but it's nowhere near enough for me. Thanks.

[Magzimum]

I see several ways out of this problem:

1. Can you post a picture of your rocket? It's possible to get to the Mun with pretty low-tech parts. Maybe we can help on that. I have a gut feeling you use a low TWR, so maybe you're burning a lot of fuel while trying to get out of Kerbin... but I cannot check this right now. 

2. Maybe you can send a drone (unmanned unKerballed) to do a flyby of the Mun. You can still do some science while in the sphere of influence (SoI) of the Mun, and transmit that through the antennas. Obviously you need to have the right antennas unlocked, and you will probably need solar power. Therefore a picture of your tech tree would help too.

3. Also, maybe you can harvest some more science from Kerbin? You can gather science from every building at KSC, and from all biomes. Some of the biomes (esp. grasslands, highlands, shores and water) are really close to the KSC. 

Posting pictures: Press F1 for taking a screenshot. Then go to the folder where KSP is installed, and look up the sub-folder called "Screenshots". Upload that on Imgur.com. Then click on that picture so it's made full-screen on Imgur, then right-click, 'copy link address', and paste that address into a post in this thread. The link should automatically be changed into the actual picture.

Happy landings!

Edited January 26, 2017 by Magzimum

[bewing]

You say 4 levels of science -- did that include Aviation? And are you playing at "Normal" difficulty?

So -- several things here:

Depending on how far you've upgraded your launchpad and VAB: if you really try, you can make a squatty rocket that will easily get you to the Mun, landed, and back again. It's a matter of refining your design repeatedly until it finally does everything you want. But it is possible.

With Electrics tech (90 points) you can make a probe that can fly by the Mun, Minmus, and the Sun, and collect a couple hundred that way.

With Miniturization tech (90 points) you can get docking ports that will allow you to put a rocket together in orbit from parts that you launch separately. And that can get you around many weight or size limits.

With Aviation tech, you can drive around KSC and easily collect over 400 points of science. Have you done that? All 14 KSC biomes + the 4 natural ones within walking distance? There's a lake at the edge of the Northern Ice Shelf -- if you go there and collect all the science, and then hit the desert + splashed at grasslands on the way back, that's another 400+ points.

By grinding contracts, you can get funds. With funds, you can upgrade R&D, VAB, Tracking Station. When you upgrade these, they suddenly have more biomes -- and you can collect those biomes for more points.

When you upgrade R&D, you get the ability to take Surface Samples. Surface samples give you a lot of science points -- and if you go around KSC collecting them, you will get hundreds of points of science.

If you haven't upgraded R&D yet, then you can't research any tech past 90 science points for now. So if you are eyeing that 300 points as being for researching a higher tech level -- you probably can't have it right now anyway.

Ah -- forgot to mention Minmus. So I must second what Mattasmack said -- it takes less of everything to land a rocket on Minmus and come home than it does for the Mun. And Minmus gives you more science points than the Mun does, for each experiment. It takes a handful of days longer to get there and get back, and doing the intercept is a tiny bit trickier.

Edited January 26, 2017 by bewing

[Mattasmack]

To clarify -- do you have the tech tree unlocked up through (including) the 90-science tier, or the one before?

Also, are you playing with any mods that impact gameplay that we ought to know about?

If you are attempting a landing on Mun, I recommend going to Minmus instead.  Its SOI is a smaller target to hit from LKO, but you can do it and the delta-V requirements for landing are significantly lower than for Mun.  If you almost have enough for a Mun landing, you should be able to make it on Minmus.  (Also, the lower gravity means everything happens more slowly when landing, which makes it a bit easier to do if you don't have much practice landing on airless bodies yet.)

In any case, I also recommend posting pictures and/or .craft files of your moon rocket.  You should be able to do it with the tech you have; seeing your rocket will help people give you relevant advice.

In terms of science, have you also exhausted high/low space above Mun and Minmus?  How about high above the sun? (You just have to pop out of Kerbin's SOI briefly, then go right back in.)

[Streetwind]

3 hours ago, vanillasnake21 said:

So I desperately need at least 300 science right now to unlock 2 upper levels of techs.

As your experience with the game grows, you will discover that technology is gating you far less than you think it is. If part limits were not a thing, you could land on the Mun and return with only 10 science points spent, to get the LV-T45, liquid fuel tanks, and inline decouplers. That's all you actually need, strictly speaking (though it's not a comfortable way to fly, by any stretch of the imagination). It is true that the 2.5m engines are strictly better than the 1.25m ones, but we're talking about something like 10% better (or less). They mostly just keep the part count down, and make it easier to get away with design mistakes (because you can oversize your launch stages). Bigger fuel tanks have exactly the same stats and contents as stacks of smaller fuel tanks - they merely reduce the part count. This goes for almost any technology: it offers additional options, but it very rarely ever unlocks additional capabilities. There's probably only like 20 parts in the entire tech tree that qualify for that, and about half of them are for planes.

As such, getting more science is not necessarily going to solve your problem. You'll get slightly improved margins from using 2.5m engines, but that'll mean you may be able to land on the Mun without crashing... and then find yourself without the fuel to go home. And then you'll ask yourself: do I need even more science?! No, you don't. You need to build better rockets with the parts you already have! Look up guides on how to build good rockets. Defeat your fear of grade school level math, and learn about mass fractions. Try to copy your favorite youtuber's design, and see if you can figure out what makes it work, and why they built it the way they did.

[Draalo]

A small amount of science is easily collectable from the runway - thats a biome too.

Just take a capsule, attach 2x Science Jr., 2x Goo and 1x any other experiment you have unlocked. Place the Science Jr. above your capsule if you dont have ladders.

Now go to the SPH and load your vessel there (select the VAB-tab when opening) and launch it. Your capsule will stand on the runway. Do the experiments, crew and EVA report, surface sample if possible. Recover the vessel and get free SP.

As mentioned above i would go to Minmus first. Not only the lower gravity of Minmus is much easier to land your vessel - Minmus is farther away and gives a bit more SP per experiment.

Try to post a picture of your sciencetree here and you ll get more info from us.

 

Good luck

[DD_bwest]

one science source alot of people forget is that every biome has a corresponding biome in low orbit that you can grab EVA reports from.  

also every biome can have a thermo do it in low atmospheric flight, so if you have a thermo on the way down, getting results just before you touch down hill give an opportunity to grab more results.

if you can get to the muns sphere of influence, and can atleast get into orbit,  then there at 17 eva biomes in low orbit worth 12 a piece.

get a surface sample from every spot you ever land,  you can also go around the space center doing the same.  if you can build a "car" of some sort, you can even go around and get science reports from the tests you can do.

if you can get to the mun, getting into orbit around minmus isnt that much harder, and has 9 biomes for low orbit eva's  plus all the other science you can get from doing both low and high orbit

you can also leave kerbin and come back.    time a burn that sends you out of kerbin either retro or prograde,  grab the science the second you change SOI's,  then burn the opposite way and head back into kerbin

 

edit:  i bolded what i think are the better sources, as they will increase skill while grabbing them

Edited January 26, 2017 by DD_bwest

[vanillasnake21]

Ok great thanks, I will try those things out.

[Mattasmack]

52 minutes ago, vanillasnake21 said:

Ok great thanks, I will try those things out.

And if you're currently working on the 90-science tier of the tech tree, I suggest going for the nodes with the OKTO probe core and solar panels next.  It sounds like you're concentrating on crewed flights currently, but it's easier to send probes to Mun and Minmus first (the rockets for them can be much smaller) and they'll give you enough science to unlock further nodes to make crewed missions easier.

[DerekL1963]

1 hour ago, Mattasmack said:

And if you're currently working on the 90-science tier of the tech tree, I suggest going for the nodes with the OKTO probe core and solar panels next.  It sounds like you're concentrating on crewed flights currently, but it's easier to send probes to Mun and Minmus first (the rockets for them can be much smaller) and they'll give you enough science to unlock further nodes to make crewed missions easier.

^^  This.   You really can't climb the tech tree blindly or just fill it out row-by-row.   You need to figure out your short, intermediate, and long term goals and buy nodes with those in mind.

[AeroGav]

Just for fun, i had a go at building a Mun rocket with only Reliant and Terrier engines.

I came up with this - 

https://kerbalx.com/AeroGav/MUN2

The core stage - the bit that flies back from Mun to earth, is just a mk1 capsule, ft100 tank and terrier, but it's got three mk1 "boosters" clustered around it, which stops things getting too tall.

for the first stage, you got three reliants at the bottom of the boosters, each of which is fed by three ft400 tanks.  Above 10km, these stage off, to reveal three terriers, each fed by a pair of ft400.   The core terrier engine also starts, though it draws fuel from the booster's tanks first.

Finally, the three terriers are staged off,  though the top of each booster stack remains with the capsule till landing on the moon, since these are the science stuff, extra ft100 tanks , and give a wider base for landing.

 

[vanillasnake21]

If only the item descriptions were actually helpful it would be so much easier to plan the tree. As of this point I have 4th column all filled except for flight control, on the 5th I only have fuel systems and heavy rocketry. However I think I'm starting to see that it doesn't matter much tech wise and that better engines won't get me there, I just need to understand the flight dynamics a bit better. Right now my approach to get to the moon was just blast off and head straight there, but I've watched someone play and they did stuff like slingshots around earth first and he didn't even need retro rockets for reentry back, he just used a shallow angle of entry etc. So I think I'm doing lots of things wrong and that's why standing in one spot. I'm getting a bit bummed out at this point because I think it's pointless to ask you guys or watch videos to learn these strategies as that's the whole point of the game - to figure them out, however it's almost impossible to do that without actually knowing proper orbital procedures. 

[DerekL1963]

1 hour ago, vanillasnake21 said:

If only the item descriptions were actually helpful it would be so much easier to plan the tree.

That comes with time and experience.
 

1 hour ago, vanillasnake21 said:

I'm getting a bit bummed out at this point because I think it's pointless to ask you guys or watch videos to learn these strategies as that's the whole point of the game - to figure them out, however it's almost impossible to do that without actually knowing proper orbital procedures.

The point of the game is to be whatever *you* want it to be.

[DD_bwest]

maybe consider giving the tutorials a shot.  i havent seen them but ive heard they help.

 

you can also watch some scott manley. hes done a number of series for learning how to play.   and if yo can get there and back using a different method, it cant be wrong, just less efficient.  so your already part way there.

getting into orbit is the first step for everything, if you can do that your well on your way

[bewing]

1 hour ago, vanillasnake21 said:

however it's almost impossible to do that without actually knowing proper orbital procedures

Well, I'd have to say it's not "proper orbital procedures" that the game is trying to teach you. The concepts are more fundamental than that, I think. Oberth Effect. Centripetal acceleration. Coriolis forces. Gravity losses. Aerodynamic lift & drag effects. Dynamic & static aerodynamic stability. Reentry heating. Aerobraking. Hohmann transfers and windows. DeltaV.

Learning what each thing is (by asking, or watching a tutorial, or wikipedia, or whatever) then can be followed by experimentation until you understand the concept in your guts.

But yes, it's true that there is an immense amount to learn here. And one of the things you can learn is that adding a few more boosters can solve most of these problems for you, without needing to have a really deep grasp of the concepts. It's only if you're trying to be elegant and efficient that you have to pay attention to every little theoretical detail.

 

[vanillasnake21]

13 minutes ago, bewing said:

Well, I'd have to say it's not "proper orbital procedures" that the game is trying to teach you. The concepts are more fundamental than that, I think. Oberth Effect. Centripetal acceleration. Coriolis forces. Gravity losses. Aerodynamic lift & drag effects. Dynamic & static aerodynamic stability. Reentry heating. Aerobraking. Hohmann transfers and windows. DeltaV.

Learning what each thing is (by asking, or watching a tutorial, or wikipedia, or whatever) then can be followed by experimentation until you understand the concept in your guts.

 

I actually very much wish that this game allowed us to actually plan things like this, however it just doesn't have enough tools and feedback to make this realistic. For example I'd love to see things like friction vectors on ascension, so I can see why my craft is tilting to the side, or in the modelling view be able to see a precise center of mass and be able to position things with precision. All this game needs is a solid "user assist" as it's got a nice foundation already.

[IncongruousGoat]

2 hours ago, vanillasnake21 said:

I'm getting a bit bummed out at this point because I think it's pointless to ask you guys or watch videos to learn these strategies as that's the whole point of the game - to figure them out, however it's almost impossible to do that without actually knowing proper orbital procedures. 

Don't feel that way at all. I can practically guarantee that the grand majority of the people in this community learned a good part of what they know (the broad strokes, at least) from videos and other community members. I know I did. Don't ever feel bad about asking questions, even if they seem really stupid. As you said, it's practically impossible to figure things out without a basic understanding of orbital mechanics. Plus, some of the most important things to know are rather counter-intuitive (see the Oberth effect).

There is no shame in asking. So ask away. The community will do its best to answer.

[DD_bwest]

propulsion systems is a good one to get, the spark is probably my favorite engine.   I always get that node before heavy rocketry or fuel systems, its much more useful at that stage cause you can just add boosters to get you into orbit.

[vanillasnake21]

@IncongruousGoat

I don't mind asking per se but this is a puzzle game, as in you have to figure out the best ship parts to use, the best trajectories, the most efficient staging etc etc. That's where the fun comes from, when I look it up I feel like it becomes completely pointless to even play this game.

[bewing]

For friction vectors on ascent, all you have to do is hit F12.

And another alternative to looking things up or asking questions is just to do the math.

But in a sense, I agree -- even once you know a lot about all the fundamentals, it's still a puzzle game. It's just that you can rule out most of the pieces -- because you know that their drag values are high, or that they are too heavy for the capabilities they provide, or they cost more than they should, or that they heat up to an unacceptable degree during reentry or ascent.

So if you are kinda stuck, and all you want is some hints, then you can say that. So, some hints would be: gravity turn during launch, place your Ap 60 degrees ahead of the Mun, burn at Pe, make the Pe of your Mun encounter as low as you reasonably can, and redesign your lander to reduce the weight. Or just go to Minmus.

[KerikBalm]

As mentioned, the dV requirements for Minmus landing aare even lower than for Mun.

What hasn't been mentioned is that if you can get a ship in lower orbit of minmus, you can eva a kerbal down to the surface, get a surface sample and surface EVA report, and then EVA back up to the ship to refil the RCS pack of the kerbal. If you're really limited by science and funds (I'm guessing funds are a limit , at least for upgrading the buildings to be able to build larger rockets), you can do this - although it seems a bit cheezy/exploity.

[DerekL1963]

13 hours ago, vanillasnake21 said:

I don't mind asking per se but this is a puzzle game, as in you have to figure out the best ship parts to use, the best trajectories, the most efficient staging etc etc. That's where the fun comes from, when I look it up I feel like it becomes completely pointless to even play this game.

There's still a lot of puzzle pieces even when you look the basics up.  I've been playing for a several years now, and I'm still figuring stuff out (especially engineering) wise even though I know the basics physics and operations wise.  And if you flop on the puzzle, you just start a new save sadder but wiser.

[Kerbal2023]

On 1/26/2017 at 6:23 AM, vanillasnake21 said:

I seem to be stuck and I'm not sure what to do at this point. Just for reference where I am now, I've got 4 levels of science unlocked, just unlocked heavy rocketry and fueling systems on the 5th tier. However using the best engines, best fuel tanks my ship comes out extremely tall and extremely heavy, so staging wise I only have enough power to crash into the moon. I don't have enough tech to make a stage to retro softly into it, and don't have the landing tech yet. So I desperately need at least 300 science right now to unlock 2 upper levels of techs. However my current science is exactly 0.6, and I have absolutely no idea how to get more. I exhausted the goo, the thermometer, the barometer, the evas, the sci jr, now they all yield zero now. So what do I do? I noticed a few of my contracts yeild miniscule science but it's nowhere near enough for me. Thanks.

Get [x]Science mod. It will tell you all the experiments you can make. I unlocked mun-ready tech just by doing measurements on that little peninsula around the launch site.