[1.12] KSP-RO - Realism Overhaul [16 May 2022]

[Teilnehmer]

(deleted)

Edited October 27, 2023 by Teilnehmer

[kspbutitscursed]

Question: I am trying to kearn how to make RO configs for Tundra Exploration and i am trying to do the first stage tank for Falcon 9 and i was wondering how to do non cryogenic tanks Thanks 

KBIC

[Fragile-Engineering]

Hi there,
I installed a new instance of RO/RSS/RP-1 after a few months of absence and I am missing the M700 survey scanner.

In my previous installation it was there. Also I am missing the default ISRU-converters and harvesters (just the kerbalism regolith harvesters are there). But the main problem is the missing resource scanner. Without this part I cannot scan any planet and therefore not doing any ISRU. Was this part removed deliberately? And if yes are there other ways of doing resource scans in RO/RP-1/RSS?

best regards

Michael

[davide96]

hello everybody, I have a question, I'm playing  RSS without RO (please don't blame on me) because I'm unexperienced, anyway I have the mod (ISPx2)that allows me to reach the orbit go to the moon back ecc....

I'm also using the mod from benjee10 the shuttle orbiter construction kit (I think that you know this mod), however when I finish my entry burn the problems start to arise...the shuttle became uncontrollable and so my entire mission fail.

Is there any config for the RSS/RO for this shuttle???

thank you very much and sorry if I made an off topic

[Starwaster]

On 12/19/2023 at 10:31 AM, davide96 said:

hello everybody, I have a question, I'm playing  RSS without RO (please don't blame on me) because I'm unexperienced, anyway I have the mod (ISPx2)that allows me to reach the orbit go to the moon back ecc....

I'm also using the mod from benjee10 the shuttle orbiter construction kit (I think that you know this mod), however when I finish my entry burn the problems start to arise...the shuttle became uncontrollable and so my entire mission fail.

Is there any config for the RSS/RO for this shuttle???

thank you very much and sorry if I made an off topic

These are the RO configs for that mod. From the looks of it, it rescales everything and makes other extensive changes that assume certain other mods are installed. Be VERY sure you know what you're doing if you want to use those configs without having RO installed.

https://github.com/KSP-RO/RealismOverhaul/blob/master/GameData/RealismOverhaul/RO_SuggestedMods/SOCK/RO_ShuttleOV.cfg

• If you are not using FAR, then don't use those configs because they will remove the stock control surface configs. It will make those changes even if you are not using FAR.
• Also, because they use FOR[RealismOverhaul], any mod config you have that is contingent on RO being installed will be applied. (that is, it will be assumed by Module Manager as if RO is fully installed even though it isn't)
• Other changes assume Real Fuels (and Community Resource Pack by extension) is installed.

TL;DR don't bother with those configs unless you have FAR and Real Fuels installed. You'd better know what you're doing!

[davide96]

Ehi, thank you very much for finding this configuration for me, I don't know if it is right because I don't use RO, I would like to play RSS (or a scaled version of kerbol like 10x) and to be able to fly the shuttle with far.

Because of this 

On 12/19/2023 at 4:31 PM, davide96 said:

when I finish my entry burn the problems start to arise...the shuttle became uncontrollable and so my entire mission fail

[Starwaster]

8 hours ago, davide96 said:

Ehi, thank you very much for finding this configuration for me, I don't know if it is right because I don't use RO, I would like to play RSS (or a scaled version of kerbol like 10x) and to be able to fly the shuttle with far.

Because of this 

I'm assuming when you said uncontrollable that you were referring to aerodynamic issues. Is that right? If it's a control authority issue, is it happening going into Max Q or before that, in the upper atmosphere where drag is still low but enough to overcome RCS? Maybe it's an issue with troubleshooting the craft design.

[jeffreymelton24]

Hello All. This message is for anyone who can answer this question, in a comprehensive way. Well, its a multi part question...
1. in RO, why are ALL, and I mean Every engine's fuel mix ratio off or wrong? I mean in the engine description portion of the configs they nail the fuel mixtures, only for the configs, not to reflect that in the slightest, a brief example would be the RL10 series of engines, specifically RL10A-1 which has a miture ratio of 5.0:1,
That means that about 83.333% of the fuel mix is LOX and the remaining 16.6667% of the fuel mix should be LH2. Well, in the configs, it shows that the engines at 23.69% LOX and 76.31% LH2, which is not only wrong, but completely backwards. I just want to know why it was done this way? was I infact wrong, should fuel mixture be read Fuel to Oxidizer, and not Oxidizer to fuel? And if that was intentional, why? especially when you are trying to nail the realism. Also, if it is intentional, is there a formula in which you did it to get the correct performance?

I wouldn't have even uncovered this if it wasn't for a mod I was using that had realism overhaul configs. the Mod is named, Tundra Exploration. With the stock realism overhaul configs, the rockets could barely even get themselves into a 200km by 200km orbit let alone a payload. I just could not figure out what the deal was. I did a deep dive into the Merlin engine, first configuring the thrust to be more inline with real life, then ISP, then that is when I looked at fuel mixture ratio. at first I had no Idea how to read it. after scouring around on the web I found that the fuel mixture is how many parts oxidizer to fuel, then i found the formula that broke it down to percentages. when I discovered this, I saw that the tundra Exploration mod engine fuel mixes, and tank fuel mixes were not adding up to real life, and after I made the necessary changes, I got the performance I was actually supposed to get. Meaning the payload capacities of Falcon1, Falcon 9V1, and Falcon9 1.1/FT, were all more along the lines of real life. So then, this made me think about what other engines have suffered this performative injustice. The answer, I found, was all of them. I write this also in part for the sake of the premade tanks that are in RSSRO/RP1 ie; Centaur A/B/C/D premade tank. it totally breaks it with "the real real mix" going from a delta V of about 6500m/s to +15000m/s. Granted, if i scale the fuel back to 6500m/s in the "real real mix" the fuel weights is closer to what it should be, but the delta V is too high and the TWR is too high also (according to what information I have went through).
Sorry for being so long winded. This is just a issue that is just tearing a hole through my mind at the moment. If anyone has any insight, please reply.

[davide96]

9 hours ago, Starwaster said:

I'm assuming when you said uncontrollable that you were referring to aerodynamic issues. Is that right? If it's a control authority issue, is it happening going into Max Q or before that, in the upper atmosphere where drag is still low but enough to overcome RCS? Maybe it's an issue with troubleshooting the craft design.

Exactly, is there a way to troubleshoot the craft designs issue??

[davide96]

23 hours ago, Starwaster said:

These are the RO configs for that mod. From the looks of it, it rescales everything and makes other extensive changes that assume certain other mods are installed. Be VERY sure you know what you're doing if you want to use those configs without having RO installed.

https://github.com/KSP-RO/RealismOverhaul/blob/master/GameData/RealismOverhaul/RO_SuggestedMods/SOCK/RO_ShuttleOV.cfg

• If you are not using FAR, then don't use those configs because they will remove the stock control surface configs. It will make those changes even if you are not using FAR.
• Also, because they use FOR[RealismOverhaul], any mod config you have that is contingent on RO being installed will be applied. (that is, it will be assumed by Module Manager as if RO is fully installed even though it isn't)
• Other changes assume Real Fuels (and Community Resource Pack by extension) is installed.

TL;DR don't bother with those configs unless you have FAR and Real Fuels installed. You'd better know what you're doing!

how can I insert this config?? just to give it a try???

[Starwaster]

2 hours ago, davide96 said:

how can I insert this config?? just to give it a try???

Put it in your Data folder and it'll be executed when you start the game. As I said though, it assumes FAR and Real Fuels are installed. If FAR isn't installed then the SOCK parts will not have any lift.  (and control surfaces will likewise not work at all)

Edited December 22, 2023 by Starwaster

[Starwaster]

13 hours ago, jeffreymelton24 said:

Hello All. This message is for anyone who can answer this question, in a comprehensive way. Well, its a multi part question...
1. in RO, why are ALL, and I mean Every engine's fuel mix ratio off or wrong? I mean in the engine description portion of the configs they nail the fuel mixtures, only for the configs, not to reflect that in the slightest, a brief example would be the RL10 series of engines, specifically RL10A-1 which has a miture ratio of 5.0:1,
That means that about 83.333% of the fuel mix is LOX and the remaining 16.6667% of the fuel mix should be LH2. Well, in the configs, it shows that the engines at 23.69% LOX and 76.31% LH2, which is not only wrong, but completely backwards. I just want to know why it was done this way? was I infact wrong, should fuel mixture be read Fuel to Oxidizer, and not Oxidizer to fuel? And if that was intentional, why? especially when you are trying to nail the realism. Also, if it is intentional, is there a formula in which you did it to get the correct performance?

IRL, rocket mix ratios are by mass. KSP (and Real Fuels) engine consumption are by volume (kiloliters).

let's say 23.69 kl LOX + 76.31 kl LH2

27.03029 mt LOX

5.410379 mt LH2

ratio of 4.9960 / 1 (rounded to 4 places)

 

 

[davide96]

23 minutes ago, Starwaster said:

IRL, rocket mix ratios are by mass. KSP (and Real Fuels) engine consumption are by volume (kiloliters).

let's say 23.69 kl LOX + 76.31 kl LH2

27.03029 mt LOX

5.410379 mt LH2

ratio of 4.9960 / 1 (rounded to 4 places)

 

 

Ah this is what I'm facing right now, I have FAR but I don't have real fuels...is this required?? Can I change the fuel used in the cfg file??

[Starwaster]

15 minutes ago, davide96 said:

Ah this is what I'm facing right now, I have FAR but I don't have real fuels...is this required?? Can I change the fuel used in the cfg file??

Then the RCS will stop working on parts that have them defined. (I didn't see any engines mentioned, just RCS)

This is why I said YOU HAD BETTER KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

Using partial configs is fine, I do it myself. I don't have RO installed either (I do use Real Fuels) .

I do draw from some part configs but I know what I'm doing and what the consequences are if I screw something up.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Starwaster

[davide96]

mmmmm.... for me it's very difficult understanding all of those things, and I feel a bit frustrated because I see other guys making their own config even if they have relatively low experience... and at the same time I fell a bit unconfortable because of bothering all of you.....

I give up  

[Ricovandijk]

2 hours ago, Starwaster said:

IRL, rocket mix ratios are by mass. KSP (and Real Fuels) engine consumption are by volume (kiloliters)

This is only relevant if the temperature is not constant, which in KSP it is. 

[jeffreymelton24]

7 hours ago, Starwaster said:

IRL, rocket mix ratios are by mass. KSP (and Real Fuels) engine consumption are by volume (kiloliters).

let's say 23.69 kl LOX + 76.31 kl LH2

27.03029 mt LOX

5.410379 mt LH2

ratio of 4.9960 / 1 (rounded to 4 places)

 

 

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate the clarity you brought to me. I was wondering if you could indulge me with just a smidge more, pretty please. if RF does engine fuel consumption by mass, how does that correspond to the Real life fuel mixture, if at all, and can you please flesh out an example for me. Break it down Barnie style (Ima slow learner unfortunately). Can you use what I referenced above with the RL10 having a 5.0:1 ratio? That way I can correctly configure engines. Or, if its easier to say the way that they are configured already in the RO engine configs, would do it also. Still would like the example though.
I am just struggling to wrap my head around this.

[jeffreymelton24]

5 hours ago, Ricovandijk said:

This is only relevant if the temperature is not constant, which in KSP it is. 

so what is the real answer?

[jeffreymelton24]

See this is weird and what I am talking about. this is in stock RO engine configs. Theres even a note beside LOX noting the mixture to be 5.0:1, but yet right beside the"//" its totally not reflecting it. I have looked around on other engines and found most of them to be resonably close to what the mix ratio is, but I have yet to see the ratios as inverted as this...
(actual config from RO)

            name = RL10A-1
            specLevel = operational
            minThrust = 65.6
            maxThrust = 65.6
            heatProduction = 100
            description = Prototype. Used for Early Atlas-Centaur launches. Very unreliable
            PROPELLANT
            {
                name = LqdHydrogen
                ratio = 0.7631---------------------------------------------------------- shouldnt this be 0.177?
                DrawGauge = True
            }
            PROPELLANT
            {
                name = LqdOxygen
                ratio = 0.2369 //5.0--------------------------------------------------------According to the ratio should this not be 0.833?
            }
            atmosphereCurve
            {
                key = 0 422
                key = 1 182
            }
            massMult = 0.785

            %ullage = True
            %ignitions = 20
            %IGNITOR_RESOURCE
            {
                %name = ElectricCharge
                %amount = 0.5
            }
I know I am posting alot. I just want to resolve this. When I do fix the values, (to 83%LOX and 17%LH2)even though they are right (I think) it breaks everything. The premade Centaur A/B/C/D tank that you unlock in game is messed up, it ends up having like 15,000 DeltaV, with around a .62TWR, as appose to it being normally around  ~6000, and with a similar TWR of .62 there abouts.
Then if I go with the procedural tanks with this "fixed" mix, the tanks sizes does not make sense in terms of a hydrogen engine. I just dont know what I am missing. Am I in the wrong place to be seeking these answers? I am just trying to better my personal experience.

[Starwaster]

9 hours ago, Ricovandijk said:

This is only relevant if the temperature is not constant, which in KSP it is. 

Your statement itself is irrelevant. IRL mix ratios ARE  by mass. KSP mix ratios ARE by volume. Therefore, if you look at the mix ratios used in the game and try to compare them to real life values you have to take into account those facts.

3 hours ago, jeffreymelton24 said:

so what is the real answer?

What I told you is the correct answer. Let's try this again: 

REAL LIFE mix ratios are by mass

KSP (including RO/Real Fuels) mix ratios are by volume. 

You MUST convert mass to volume when configuring engines.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Starwaster

[Ricovandijk]

Best use the same ratio and add the units SG (specific gravity) in the equation, rather than to adjust the ratio. 

fuel mass : oxidiser mass (This is used irl because temperature is irrelevant)

(Fuel volume x SG) : (oxidiser volume x SG) this fluctuates with temperature but is irrelevant in KSP. By adding the SG you can use the same ratio as in the first equation.

 

 

[Starwaster]

On 12/23/2023 at 5:37 AM, Ricovandijk said:

Best use the same ratio and add the units SG (specific gravity) in the equation, rather than to adjust the ratio. 

fuel mass : oxidiser mass (This is used irl because temperature is irrelevant)

(Fuel volume x SG) : (oxidiser volume x SG) this fluctuates with temperature but is irrelevant in KSP. By adding the SG you can use the same ratio as in the first equation.

 

 

So you still don't understand that he is confused by the mix ratios that he is encountering in the engine configs and that I am explaining to him why they don't match his expectations? You're not helping here at all. None of what you are saying to him is helping nor is it relevant to interpreting or writing engine configs.

[Terminal Velocity]

is there a way i can only use the part scaling this mod brings? its because i use simple rss patch to make the rockets work, but they are massively undersized for the launch sites, so I want to know if its possible to use only the part scaling. (Tweak scale doesn't work for all parts)

[Spaceman.Spiff]

On 1/20/2024 at 11:20 AM, Terminal Velocity said:

is there a way i can only use the part scaling this mod brings? its because i use simple rss patch to make the rockets work, but they are massively undersized for the launch sites, so I want to know if its possible to use only the part scaling. (Tweak scale doesn't work for all parts)

IIRC Tweakscale isn't supported. Generally you want to be using ROTanks, ROEngines, etc for supported, real-scale parts. (ROTanks has built-in scaling)

https://github.com/KSP-RO/ has everything, and it's also all on CKAN.

[mnbvcxz]

Hello, I had some problems with RO, when I used sas to control the rocket direction in the direction of the orbit normal, and then fast-forward the game, the rocket became stationary, and its orbit moved a lot after the end of fast forward, and then I went to the tracking station, and then selected this vehicle control, and then the game was stuck in the interface in the picture below. I moved my game out of the Steam folder, then asked Steam to update the KSP, and then used Ckan to install RSS and RO in this brand new KSP, and I found that unless I manually delete the Realism Overhual folder (Ckan doesn't allow me to delete RO alone), this problem happens all the time. I'm not good at English, but I've tried finding a solution to this problem in many places online (like github and forums), but I'm surprised that no one has had this problem. What should I do? Welcome and appreciate any help!I just tried it again on a brand new, RO and RSS-only KSP, and I found that when I changed the direction of the track normal in the above process to the reverse direction, and then came back from the tracking station, the game crashed directly. (I tried this because I crashed on my ksp with a lot of mods) I haven't found a way to upload the logs, google and his cloud disk are disabled in my region, here's a small part of the end of my logs:

 

[ERR 18:59:43.641] [FAR v0.16.1.2]: Mesh error in Mk1-3 Command Pod (4m)

[ERR 18:59:43.641] [FAR v0.16.1.2]: Mesh error in Mk1-3 Command Pod (4m)

[ERR 18:59:43.641] [FAR v0.16.1.2]: Mesh error in Mk1-3 Command Pod (4m)

[ERR 18:59:43.641] [FAR v0.16.1.2]: Mesh error in Mk1-3 Command Pod (4m)

[ERR 18:59:43.641] [FAR v0.16.1.2]: Mesh error in Mk1-3 Command Pod (4m)

[ERR 18:59:43.641] [FAR v0.16.1.2]: Mesh error in Mk1-3 Command Pod (4m)

[ERR 18:59:43.641] [FAR v0.16.1.2]: Mesh error in Mk1-3 Command Pod (4m)

[ERR 18:59:43.641] [FAR v0.16.1.2]: Mesh error in Mk1-3 Command Pod (4m)

[ERR 18:59:43.642] [FAR v0.16.1.2]: Mesh error in Mk1-3 Command Pod (4m)

[ERR 18:59:43.642] [FAR v0.16.1.2]: Mesh error in Mk1-3 Command Pod (4m)

[ERR 18:59:43.642] [FAR v0.16.1.2]: Mesh error in Mk1-3 Command Pod (4m)

[ERR 18:59:43.642] [FAR v0.16.1.2]: Mesh error in Mk1-3 Command Pod (4m)

[ERR 18:59:43.642] [FAR v0.16.1.2]: Bounds error in Mk1-3 Command Pod (4m)

[ERR 18:59:43.642] [FAR v0.16.1.2]: Mesh error in Mk1-3 Command Pod (4m)

[ERR 18:59:43.642] [FAR v0.16.1.2]: Mesh error in Mk1-3 Command Pod (4m)

[ERR 18:59:43.642] [FAR v0.16.1.2]: Mesh error in Mk1-3 Command Pod (4m)

[ERR 18:59:43.642] [FAR v0.16.1.2]: Mesh error in Mk1-3 Command Pod (4m)

[ERR 18:59:43.642] [FAR v0.16.1.2]: Mesh error in Mk1-3 Command Pod (4m)

Second edit: It looks like the above problem disappeared after manually deleting the RealismOverhaul .dll file in the plugins folder in the Realism Overhaul folder, and the engines that are close to the realistic size and thrust (brought by RO) are still there, I only lose the ability to keep spinning when time accelerates, I only dare to do this in my new KSP, and there is a RO error installation error when loading. Can I delete that file with confidence? Thanks for any help! All I say is translation

Edited January 30 by mnbvcxz