Explore Mun Contract

[Stratickus]

Does anyone know definitively how to generate the World First Explore Mun Contract? Is there some sort of necessary prerequisite? 

I always get the Explore Minmus contract. I have used the in-game debug toolbar to both regenerate and clear current contracts. I will get the 3 variations of the Explore Minmus contract over and over, but never Mun. I must have clicked each of those buttons hundreds of times and I never get Mun. What am I missing?

Cheers,

[bewing]

I can try asking the devs for you, but mostly it's a mystery wrapped in an enigma. AFAIK, only Arsonide ever knew, and he's not talking.

It may have to do with whether you've ever flown a probe through the Mun's SOI or Minmus' SOI?

 

[Magzimum]

The World Firsts algorithm is a very stubborn one. If it has decided that you will visit Minmus, then you will visit Minmus. It can generate various contracts (flyby, explore, land, dock in orbit, etc.) and will keep cycling those until you've done most or all of them.

But... if you visit the Mun, then the World Firsts society have a secret bank account that will actually pay you some money for doing that even if you had no contract.

Spoiler for making life a little easier with the world-firsts:

Spoiler

My top-tip for explorers is to put a Jr docking port, probe core and a reaction wheel on a piece of soon-to-be-debris, so that you can fulfill a future dock-in-orbit contract. That must be done between two ships that were launched separately. If you already leave one in orbit, you've saved yourself some time/money.

I specifically use the Jr docking port so that the other ship can be using the tiny 0.625m parts too. Moar profit!

 

Edited February 6, 2017 by Magzimum

[DD_bwest]

i often find that warping for a week to reshuffle the contracts will give you a new world first.  but minmus for me only shows up before mun maybe 1 in 5 times.  i generally warp until i have a mun contract to my liking (the one that includes orbit, science and returning as its the most lucrative)

also when you get into orbit above kerbin the first time, before heading down, go back to space center and there will be a worlds first contract for coming back down lol

[WanderingKid]

Possibly a foolish question, but have you already BEEN to Mun?

[Stratickus]

On 2/6/2017 at 1:57 AM, bewing said:

I can try asking the devs for you, but mostly it's a mystery wrapped in an enigma. AFAIK, only Arsonide ever knew, and he's not talking.

It may have to do with whether you've ever flown a probe through the Mun's SOI or Minmus' SOI?

 

I'm not necessarily looking for a spoiler or even a peek behind the curtain, but every time I start a new career, I always get the Minmus contract, never the Mun. This last career playthrough, I have been very careful in how I progress. I get the Minmus contract immediately after returning from my first orbit. There is essentially no way I have been to either Mun or Minmus SOI yet.

On 2/6/2017 at 6:22 AM, Magzimum said:

The World Firsts algorithm is a very stubborn one. If it has decided that you will visit Minmus, then you will visit Minmus. It can generate various contracts (flyby, explore, land, dock in orbit, etc.) and will keep cycling those until you've done most or all of them.

Stubborn indeed. As I mentioned, I have used the in-game debug menu to constantly clear and regenerate contracts. For some reason I never get Mun, which makes me think I a missing some key detail. 

On 2/6/2017 at 0:57 PM, DD_bwest said:

i often find that warping for a week to reshuffle the contracts will give you a new world first.  but minmus for me only shows up before mun maybe 1 in 5 times.

Can I ask how you typically progress? It may very well be that the way I do my initial progression inevitably drives me to Minmus and not Mun. I have played the early part of career so many times now, that I do it virtually identically every time.

On 2/6/2017 at 6:02 PM, WanderingKid said:

Possibly a foolish question, but have you already BEEN to Mun?

It's not that foolish. It was variable I had not really considered before as obvious as it is. But as of late I have been very careful not to go to Mun first. Or anywhere for that matter.

With an additional bit of testing, after I had cycled through the 3 various Minmus contracts using the debug menu dozens of times, I upgraded the Astronaut complex and predictably got the first Spacewalk contract. Now when I regenerate contracts I will not get anything but the Spacewalk contract even though I have literally accomplished nothing else after initially getting the Minmus contracts. This leads me to believe that whatever algorithm is being used to generate these particular contracts needs necessary triggers or events and then generates the 'easiest' contract. Or at least something that is close to predictable progression. I had assumed that getting to Minmus or Mun were similar in difficulty if not progression. Though if I had to pick one, it would make more sense to me to at least fly by Mun before getting Minmus. I understand that there is a bit of randomness to the contract generation, but I assumed that regenerating the contracts using the debug menu as akin to re-rolling the dice. Which again takes me back to thinking that I consistently miss some sort of necessary trigger or event.

Cheers, 

Edited February 8, 2017 by Stratickus

[DD_bwest]

1 minute ago, Stratickus said:

Can I ask how you typically progress? It may very well be that the way I do my initial progression inevitably drives me to Minmus and not Mun. I have played the early part of career so many times now, that I do it virtually identically every time now.

 

Launch 1 leaves the atmophere,  i choose the contract for leaving the atmo and the more lucrative of gather science/first launch.  i cant remember which one it is that gives you more, i just select the one with more money (gets first 5 science nodes)

launch 2 orbits kerbin with a space walk.  pre launch i grab the contract for orbitting,  once in orbit i go back to the space center and grab the contract for coming back down, and one for science from space if they have one up. ( gets 4 from the next tier plus propulsion systems.)

launch 3 goes to orbit Mun, then minmus, then leaves kerbin SOI before coming home.  for this launch i will  roll the dice on the contracts until i get the mun contract that offers orbitting, gathering science and then coming home.  its the most lucrative of the mun world firsts,  there is another that is just fly by and ill avoid that one.  i do that because i need the cash from the advance and from orbitting Mun so that i can upgrade mission control and the tracking station for my mun-minmus transfer + coming home. (1800~ science points)

sometimes ill split launch 3 into 2 missions so that i can get the worlds first contracts for minmus, but the bonuses you get for going anyways helps.  money isnt really an issue because after that comes a mission with multiple Mun landings, which gives you the opportunity to complete a whole bunch of flag plantings which can add up nicely.   sometimes ill finish off the tree with a mission that will explore all of mun + minmus + some of ike, depending on how fast i wanna get to more advanced missions.

 

if there was anything in my progression that i would think makes mun contracts more likely over minmus, is that mission control and the tracking station arent upgraded.   but thats just musings, i know nothing about if its truly accurate.  Just my anecdotal experience.

[Magzimum]

And what happens if you just finish all the Minmus contracts? Send two ships. Land one (with crew). Do your science. Then dock these two ships in Minmus orbit. Do some EVA in orbit. Transfer some crew between the two ships. Leave one ship there to beam back some science at a later stage (it's free cash), and fly the other one home with all the crew. I think that procedure should just nail all the Minmus World Firsts in one go.

I am curious if the game then generates Duna/Ike/Eve/Gilly contracts, or if it finally offers some Mun contracts. This should help us understand whether the Mun just doesn't come up due to your choices in the early game, or because it somehow thinks it's completed.

[Stratickus]

On 2/7/2017 at 8:09 PM, DD_bwest said:

if there was anything in my progression that i would think makes mun contracts more likely over minmus, is that mission control and the tracking station arent upgraded.   but thats just musings, i know nothing about if its truly accurate.  Just my anecdotal experience.

It seems like you progress very similar to how I do it, though you combine a lot more missions than I do. Making sure the facilities were at their lowest level was not something I had really considered. Though usually, by the time I get the Minmus contract the only 2 buildings I have upgraded are Mission Control and the Astronaut complex.

Unfortunately, I did test this and upgraded only the Astronaut complex to get the spacewalk mission and no other buildings and I cannot get Mun, no matter how many times I regenerate the contracts using the debug menu..

If anyone else has any ideas, I'm willing to try.

[DD_bwest]

hmm thats odd, for me once i finish the contract for coming down from orbit,  itll give me the mun one.

for the 3rd launch, the one i expect and grab the mun world first,  ive upgraded - astrocomplex, launch pad and VAB.   the LP and VAB are essential for this flight as it brings 10 mat bays, and the fuel needed to get to all 3 destinations puts me well over the 18t and 30 part limits.   maybe it wants those upgraded before it asks players to try the mun?    although ive seen mun world firsts while doing the caveman challenge...

 

sidebar-  with the new science cans it makes it easy to get the science for the 4 lowest biome hieghts on kerbin. place 4 mat bays lower on your rocket, on parts that are gonna be staged off during ascent, and use the can to pull the results on the go lol

[Stratickus]

I found the problem to my specific issue. It was a mod conflict. Apparently OPM does something that the contract generation system did not like. I have tested this twice on 2 separate saves, using the clear contract button in the debug menu after uninstalling OPM and get the Mun contract right away. 

Cheers,

[Arsonide]

On 2/6/2017 at 1:57 AM, bewing said:

I can try asking the devs for you, but mostly it's a mystery wrapped in an enigma. AFAIK, only Arsonide ever knew, and he's not talking.

I mean, nobody's ever asked me, so that would help. As would mentioning me properly so I get pinged, as I am active on the forums. It isn't really a mystery at all.

Explore contracts have a very specific logic to them that is semi-random, but also quite ordered at the same time. They used to be entirely random, but that is not the case anymore. I'm not going to get into specific details, but here is the gist of things. They look at what you have done on the planets you have been to. They will keep offering you objectives on those planets up until a certain point of progression has been met on that planet before offering the next planet. However, if you "skip" a planet, and visit Duna, for example, then the game will assume that you are capable of reaching Duna, and start offering things there as well. Just because they start offering a new planet does not mean they stop offering things on an older planet.

Advanced objectives for the old planet, such as rendezvous and docking, will appear alongside more basic objectives on new planets, such as flybys and orbits. They will always appear in a logical fashion. You won't see a return from flyby before you see a flyby, and you won't see a request to planet a flag before you've been asked to land.

These contracts also keep track of what you are capable of, so for example, they aren't going to ask you to place a flag on the Mun if you've never sent any crew to the Mun. They aren't going to ask you to EVA if you don't have the facility upgrades to EVA, and they aren't going to ask you to dock without docking ports researched.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Arsonide

[WanderingKid]

38 minutes ago, Arsonide said:

I mean, nobody's ever asked me, so that would help. As would mentioning me properly so I get pinged, as I am active on the forums. It isn't really a mystery at all.

Thanks for dropping in!

A question that's been bugging me for ages.  Why is rendezvous/dock at (x) less important than flyby at (y) yet more important than land at (y)?  In particular, dock at Mun always seems to drop in between flyby Minmus and Orbit Minmus.  Drives me BUGGY!  If you happen to know offhand and can explain what seems to be an odd choice of priorities to me, that would help me not want to throttle the career mode sometimes.

[eddiew]

While we have your ear @Arsonide - I find with my current career that the game is never offering exploration contracts for places I've yet to visit, and is obsessed with asking me to rendezvous/dock/transfer crew around places I've been to already.

I do however have a 3.2x setup. Is it possible that the contract system is checking for planets within a particular distance of <homeworld> and not finding any? Or do I just need to clear out the rendezvous/docking stuff before it will ask me to move on?

Edited February 27, 2017 by eddiew

[Arsonide]

21 minutes ago, WanderingKid said:

Thanks for dropping in!

A question that's been bugging me for ages.  Why is rendezvous/dock at (x) less important than flyby at (y) yet more important than land at (y)?  In particular, dock at Mun always seems to drop in between flyby Minmus and Orbit Minmus.  Drives me BUGGY!  If you happen to know offhand and can explain what seems to be an odd choice of priorities to me, that would help me not want to throttle the career mode sometimes.

It's not a matter of importance, it's a matter of progression. What happens is the game sees that you are ready for advanced stuff on x, and therefore also qualify for a flyby at y. After your flyby, it creates a pool of advanced X subjects and basic Y subjects, and makes a choice from the pool that is created.

7 minutes ago, eddiew said:

While we have your ear @Arsonide - I find with my current career that the game is never offering exploration contracts for places I've yet to visit, and is obsessed with asking me to rendezvous/dock/transfer crew around places I've been to already.

I do however have a 3.2x setup. Is it possible that the contract system is checking for planets within a particular distance of <homeworld> and not finding any? Or do I just need to clear out the rendezvous/docking stuff before it will ask me to move on?

The only time it checks distances is when it calculates the next flyby, otherwise it's just watching your progression. It could probably use a few extra options to allow people to tweak how they want it to behave. There are a lot of these in Contracts.cfg, but there could probably be more. Might be worth a suggestion thread.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Arsonide

[eddiew]

3 minutes ago, Arsonide said:

The only time it checks distances is when it calculates the next flyby, otherwise it's just watching your progression. It could probably use a few extra options to allow people to tweak how they want it to behave. There are a lot of these in Contracts.cfg, but there could probably be more. Might be worth a suggestion thread.

It's certainly never offered me a flyby for anything... I'll have a snoop in the configs, it it's there I'll raise a suggestion with Sigma Dimensions to scale that search distance  

I would however love options to allow skipping of objectives like rendezvous and dock. Sometimes the mission needs it, sometimes it doesn't, and once a planet is farmed out (or sometimes just "visited") it can be irksome to get told to go back there with multiple vessels... ^^;

[Arsonide]

1 hour ago, eddiew said:

It's certainly never offered me a flyby for anything...

Then this is a bug, and should be reported. It should be offering them under certain conditions.

[bewing]

8 minutes ago, Arsonide said:

Then this is a bug, and should be reported. It should be offering them under certain conditions.

I did report it as a feedback when this thread was started. Along with another one back in December along similar lines.

But as there is no way to prove that something is not happening, it's nearly impossible to actually create it as a formal bug report.

Edited February 27, 2017 by bewing