totm nov 2023 SpaceX Discussion Thread

[darthgently]

2 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

You work sixteen hours, whaddaya get? 

... Another day older and deeper in debt
St. Peter, don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

It makes sense to incorporate if enough people live down there.  
From Grok:

Spoiler

The incorporation of Starbase, Texas into its own city would offer several advantages:

1. **Local Governance and Autonomy**:
   - Incorporation would allow Starbase to have its own local government, which could make decisions tailored to the unique needs of the community, especially given its focus on space technology and industry. This could streamline local regulations and zoning laws to better fit SpaceX's operations.

2. **Control Over Infrastructure and Services**:
   - An incorporated city could manage its own roads, utilities, and potentially even schools and health services, as mentioned by SpaceX's General Manager Kathryn Lueders in communications to local officials. This could lead to more efficient management and development of infrastructure critical to SpaceX's operations.

3. **Economic Development**:
   - Becoming a city could attract further investment and economic activity, as it would officially recognize Starbase as a significant economic hub. This could encourage more business to set up around the area, boosting local employment and economic growth.

4. **Legal and Administrative Benefits**:
   - Incorporation might simplify legal processes related to land use, building codes, and environmental regulations. It could also mean direct access to municipal funding or grants that are only available to incorporated cities, which could be used for development or community services.

5. **Community Identity and Growth**:
   - Incorporation would give Starbase an official identity, potentially fostering a stronger community spirit among residents and workers. It would also allow for planned community growth, aligning with SpaceX's vision for the area, possibly including residential, commercial, and educational developments.

6. **Environmental Management**:
   - While incorporation does not inherently solve environmental issues, having a local government could provide better control over managing environmental impact, ensuring compliance with regulations, and potentially negotiating more effectively with environmental agencies or groups.

7. **Political Influence**:
   - As an incorporated city, Starbase would have a direct say in local politics, representation in county decisions, and potentially influence over regional policy that affects its operations.

These advantages are based on information from web sources discussing SpaceX's intentions and the potential impacts of incorporating Starbase. However, these benefits would also come with responsibilities like managing city services, ensuring compliance with state laws, and dealing with community and environmental concerns.

 

[Nuke]

4 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

You work sixteen hours, whaddaya get? 

... Another day older and deeper in debt
St. Peter, don't you call me 'cause I can't go
I owe my soul to the company store

i hear they used to use that song in the soviet union, as anti-american propaganda.

[tater]

https://permitting.sjrwmd.com/ep/#/prmtInfo?curId=&hdr=1&usrId=0&offclId=229232&seqNo=1

Project Number 229232 - 1

Project Name Launch Complex 39A Landing Zones

 

[darthgently]

Would you ride a Falcon 9 booster from launch to barge landing assuming a small LES equipped module where you would be laying down flat on your back facing forward?

grok says it would be physiologically risky but likely survivable:

Spoiler

Enduring the g-forces of a Falcon 9 booster from launch to landing in a supine position would be extremely challenging for the average healthy person due to several reasons:

- **Launch Phase:**
  - **G-Force**: During the ascent, Falcon 9 experiences peak g-forces around 3.5 g. This level is within the range that many healthy individuals might tolerate for short durations, especially if in a supine position where the force is distributed more evenly across the body. However, this is still close to or at the upper limit of what untrained individuals can handle without significant discomfort or risk of temporary symptoms like greyout.

- **Reentry and Landing:**
  - **G-Force**: Here's where the challenge significantly increases. During reentry and especially during the landing burn, the Falcon 9 can experience g-forces potentially exceeding 4 g, with some estimates suggesting peaks could go higher at certain moments during the "hover slam" or "suicide burn." 

  - **Duration**: The duration of these forces is another critical factor. While the high g-forces are brief, they come after a period of sustained lower g-forces during ascent and reentry, which could already fatigue the body.

- **Supine Position**: Being in a supine position might mitigate some issues compared to sitting or standing, as it distributes the force more evenly and reduces the tendency for blood to pool away from the brain. However:

  - Even in this position, the cardiovascular system must still cope with the forces, potentially leading to issues like blood pooling in the legs, reduced blood flow to the brain, and increased heart workload.

  - The rapid changes in g-force, from high positive g to near zero during staging or engine shutdowns, then back to high positive g during landing, could induce disorientation, nausea, or even loss of consciousness in unprepared individuals.

- **Physiological Impacts**:
  - **Breathing**: High g-forces can make breathing more labored, especially if the force is directed towards the feet, compressing the thoracic cavity.
  - **Vision**: There's a risk of greyout or blackout due to reduced blood flow to the eyes and brain.
  - **Muscle and Organ Stress**: Organs and muscles are subjected to unusual stresses which could lead to injury or long-term effects if not managed properly.

Given these considerations:

- An average healthy person could theoretically survive the launch phase, but the landing phase, with its higher g-forces and rapid deceleration, would be much more taxing. 
- Without training, G-suits, or medical supervision, the risk of adverse health effects or even injury would be significant. 
- Astronauts undergo extensive training, including centrifuge sessions to acclimate to g-forces, something the average person does not have.

Therefore, while some might endure these forces, the average person would likely find the experience extremely uncomfortable, potentially dangerous, and not advisable without proper preparation and safety measures.

I went down this path when it occurred to me that every F9 booster flight has more fun built in than New Shepard, is very reliable and safe wrt flight and landing, and is darn survivable from a g force pov

[magnemoe]

39 minutes ago, darthgently said:

Would you ride a Falcon 9 booster from launch to barge landing assuming a small LES equipped module where you would be laying down flat on your back facing forward?

grok says it would be physiologically risky but likely survivable:

  Hide contents

Enduring the g-forces of a Falcon 9 booster from launch to landing in a supine position would be extremely challenging for the average healthy person due to several reasons:

- **Launch Phase:**
  - **G-Force**: During the ascent, Falcon 9 experiences peak g-forces around 3.5 g. This level is within the range that many healthy individuals might tolerate for short durations, especially if in a supine position where the force is distributed more evenly across the body. However, this is still close to or at the upper limit of what untrained individuals can handle without significant discomfort or risk of temporary symptoms like greyout.

- **Reentry and Landing:**
  - **G-Force**: Here's where the challenge significantly increases. During reentry and especially during the landing burn, the Falcon 9 can experience g-forces potentially exceeding 4 g, with some estimates suggesting peaks could go higher at certain moments during the "hover slam" or "suicide burn." 

  - **Duration**: The duration of these forces is another critical factor. While the high g-forces are brief, they come after a period of sustained lower g-forces during ascent and reentry, which could already fatigue the body.

- **Supine Position**: Being in a supine position might mitigate some issues compared to sitting or standing, as it distributes the force more evenly and reduces the tendency for blood to pool away from the brain. However:

  - Even in this position, the cardiovascular system must still cope with the forces, potentially leading to issues like blood pooling in the legs, reduced blood flow to the brain, and increased heart workload.

  - The rapid changes in g-force, from high positive g to near zero during staging or engine shutdowns, then back to high positive g during landing, could induce disorientation, nausea, or even loss of consciousness in unprepared individuals.

- **Physiological Impacts**:
  - **Breathing**: High g-forces can make breathing more labored, especially if the force is directed towards the feet, compressing the thoracic cavity.
  - **Vision**: There's a risk of greyout or blackout due to reduced blood flow to the eyes and brain.
  - **Muscle and Organ Stress**: Organs and muscles are subjected to unusual stresses which could lead to injury or long-term effects if not managed properly.

Given these considerations:

- An average healthy person could theoretically survive the launch phase, but the landing phase, with its higher g-forces and rapid deceleration, would be much more taxing. 
- Without training, G-suits, or medical supervision, the risk of adverse health effects or even injury would be significant. 
- Astronauts undergo extensive training, including centrifuge sessions to acclimate to g-forces, something the average person does not have.

Therefore, while some might endure these forces, the average person would likely find the experience extremely uncomfortable, potentially dangerous, and not advisable without proper preparation and safety measures.

I went down this path when it occurred to me that every F9 booster flight has more fun built in than New Shepard, is very reliable and safe wrt flight and landing, and is darn survivable from a g force pov

Well all the astronauts flying with dragon has experienced the launch. Think peak g would be close to second sage burnout? 
Braking burn, and even initial landing burn is another thing, 3 engines but no upper state and stage is almost empty and they are not limited by g forces on interstage or payload. 

[darthgently]

13 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

Well all the astronauts flying with dragon has experienced the launch. Think peak g would be close to second sage burnout? 
Braking burn, and even initial landing burn is another thing, 3 engines but no upper state and stage is almost empty and they are not limited by g forces on interstage or payload. 

That was Grok’s take also, that the landing burn would spike above 4g for 22 to 32 seconds and would be the highest g.   Laying flat in a proper couch I think a person of average health would have no issues, but really don’t know.

Headline I want to see:

NASA Baffled at SpaceX Request to Human Rate F9 Booster For Powered Landing

[CatastrophicFailure]

On 12/12/2024 at 8:18 PM, darthgently said:

It makes sense to incorporate if enough people live down there.  

Not to mention they get to test and iterate societal PIDs for Mars... 

21 hours ago, darthgently said:

Would you ride a Falcon 9 booster from launch to barge landing assuming a small LES equipped module where you would be laying down flat on your back facing forward?

If you want a really thrilling ride there's always Ares I...

[Exoscientist]

On 11/28/2024 at 7:39 PM, StrandedonEarth said:

I’m pretty sure $10M is for just Starship, not the booster as well. So not an entire Moon rocket for just $10M

And then there’s the cost of outfitting the ships. A cargo ship shouldn’t take much, but a manned ship? I reckon the price of a manned Starship should be at least double a cargo ship by the time it’s on the pad, and then there’s the price of the payloads in the cargo Ships. 

 Yes. In that SpaceWatch.Global interview Zubrin makes clear the Starship upper stage is what Elon says could be made for $10 million, not the Superheavy. But a key point is you can make smaller launcher using the Starship itself as the booster, with a smaller “mini-Starship”, if you will, as the upper stage. At least I assume that is what Zubrin is arguing. I don’t think he would be arguing in favor of a SSTO. Then, if you run the numbers such a smaller two-stage vehicle could be a 100-ton class launcher as an expendable.

  Bob Clark

[tater]

 

[darthgently]

25 minutes ago, tater said:

 

Stretch Limo version looking good

[tater]

Don't see this often:

 

[darthgently]

12 minutes ago, tater said:

Don't see this often:

 

Not flight proven.  Seems sketchy.  Times have changed

Edited December 16 by darthgently

[magnemoe]

7 hours ago, darthgently said:

Not flight proven.  Seems sketchy.  Times have changed

This, it will come an time then the first flight of an rocket is an test flight like it is for planes. However as you reach orbit its an nice way to space qualify other systems.
Note I'm talking about the named rocket not the class. 

[darthgently]

8 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

This, it will come an time then the first flight of an rocket is an test flight like it is for planes. However as you reach orbit its an nice way to space qualify other systems.
Note I'm talking about the named rocket not the class. 

We’ve entered the age of rockets having maiden flights.   We should start breaking champagne bottles on them and cutting ribbons perhaps?

[tater]

A couple hours ago:

 

[darthgently]

Very old but fascinating impromptu notes taken in a discussion with an early SpaceX software dev.  Not sure who note taker is.  Obviously things have moved on quite a bit but this is a great slice of historical nerd reality here

https://www.realms.org/spacex-talk-notes.html
 

[tater]

 

[RCgothic]

https://bsky.app/profile/sciguyspace.bsky.social/post/3ldjuvm6r6j2c

FAA approve IFT-7

[tater]

 

[darthgently]

Astranis GEO F9 launch abort at T-0:01.

 

[darthgently]

 

[darthgently]

What we have is a dynamic situation apparently

 

[darthgently]

Interesting possibilities

 

[magnemoe]

4 hours ago, darthgently said:

Interesting possibilities

 

I think its a bit weird they has not started on this long ago. Not even sure how far you are from places you can get multiple trailers a day of oxygen and nitrogen. 
Methane is also an issue as you need refined LNG who is kind of an special product but they get it and its just an faction of the trailers. 

[tater]

Also, F9 launch: