[0.20] RemoteTech: Relay Network – V 0.5.0.1

[rkman]

Does the new dish cause more drag on one side? (The side with the antennae piece?) listing This rocket wasn't doing this before with the older style dish.

Edit: This could also be caused by the dish not properly snapping to a hard point. Is there a way to change that in the cfg?

The new dish has zero drag, but it does have substantial mass.

It does have a node_stack_bottom that allows it to be connected to a hard point but it is easy to accidentally have it attach to the surface near the hard point instead. Then it'll look like it's attached properly but on close inspection it is attached off-center, which would cause imbalance in the craft.

To avoid that you can comment out the node_attach in the part.cfg by putting two slashes at the beginning of the line like so:

// node_attach = (lots of numbers)

[Kreuzung]

I always look at the ship from the side while attaching parts that could also attach to the surface to prevent accidents like that.

[sochmer]

(edit)

On closer inspection it looks like you have a RemoteCommand on your satellite. You really don't need that, you just need RemoteControl if you want it to be a remote controlled comsat. RemoteCommand is only for bigger command stations with crew to staff the station (by default 5 crew members are needed).

i noticed that, thanks for the tip!

[Shortsonfire79]

It does have a node_stack_bottom that allows it to be connected to a hard point but it is easy to accidentally have it attach to the surface near the hard point instead. Then it'll look like it's attached properly but on close inspection it is attached off-center, which would cause imbalance in the craft.

To avoid that you can comment out the node_attach in the part.cfg by putting two slashes at the beginning of the line like so:

// node_attach = (lots of numbers)

Ah, thanks for that. I think the part was centered, I just don't know why it kept listing like that. Thanks for the .cfg edit as well, that'll really help for the next time I use these.

[i0nicx]

You can go to your KSP install directory, PluginData\remotetech\settings.cfg and change RemoteCommand Crew = 5 to RemoteCommand Crew = 1, with a text editor. That's the minimum for a command vessel as JDP said in his post. Your remote vessels don't have a crew requirement.

Ah my bad, I thought it having '1' meant it needed one crew member. Thanks for the clarification!

[JDP]

Ah my bad, I thought it having '1' meant it needed one crew member. Thanks for the clarification!

RemoteCommand will always require crew, since it doesn't really make sense if it where otherwise. You could just have all your unmanned vessels be command vessels and they wouldn't need any relay network at all.

A very important point in this plugin is that unmanned craft should not be able to control themselves. In RemoteTech there always needs to be kerbals at the controls, even if the controls are at a command station millions of km away. RemoteTech is not just about letting you do cool things, but also to make it extra challenging to do those cool things.

But if all you want is debris activation, completely autonomous vessels and none of the relay network stuff, then I'd recommend ditching RemoteTech and in stead only using MechJeb. Once debris activation is fixed in the next update of MechJeb it should work just as well as my debris activation, if not better.

Actually (barring the currently very bugged debris activation in MechJeb) the only advantage in using RemoteTech for debris activation in stead of MechJeb is the addition of attitude control via RemoteSAS. And unless r4m0n does something very very complicated for the next update, RemoteSAS should work just fine with MechJeb as well, once MechJeb debris activation is up and running again.

[maxpanic]

JDP, I'm not sure if it's possible to change the post title when you make edits, but if it is, can you add the full version number when you make an update?

Since it still says 0.3 I missed it going up to 0.34.

[i0nicx]

RemoteCommand will always require crew, since it doesn't really make sense if it where otherwise. You could just have all your unmanned vessels be command vessels and they wouldn't need any relay network at all.

A very important point in this plugin is that unmanned craft should not be able to control themselves. In RemoteTech there always needs to be kerbals at the controls, even if the controls are at a command station millions of km away. RemoteTech is not just about letting you do cool things, but also to make it extra challenging to do those cool things.

But if all you want is debris activation, completely autonomous vessels and none of the relay network stuff, then I'd recommend ditching RemoteTech and in stead only using MechJeb. Once debris activation is fixed in the next update of MechJeb it should work just as well as my debris activation, if not better.

Actually (barring the currently very bugged debris activation in MechJeb) the only advantage in using RemoteTech for debris activation in stead of MechJeb is the addition of attitude control via RemoteSAS. And unless r4m0n does something very very complicated for the next update, RemoteSAS should work just fine with MechJeb as well, once MechJeb debris activation is up and running again.

I think where my problem is that I think I need a remote command to relay the signal when all I need is a remote control to relay the signal? Which if that's right, I feel quite silly and apologize.

[Leon_Brooks]

I think where my problem is that I think I need a remote command to relay the signal when all I need is a remote control to relay the signal? Which if that's right, I feel quite silly and apologize.

You can bounce the signal with,depending on your mission, a remote control antenna(250k-very short range-EX: Rover control from a near by lander/low-orbit relay sat) or a RemoteTech antenna/dipole(5000k-short range-EX: High orbit relay sats/Keo-synch).

Or you can use sat dishes(50000k and greater) but They must be pointed at each other to do so. So, unless you want to put sat dishes on all your craft followed by manually going to settings window and points the dishes at each other, use antennas.

A 'remote command' is not needed to relay, as you suspect.

[JDP]

JDP, I'm not sure if it's possible to change the post title when you make edits, but if it is, can you add the full version number when you make an update?

Since it still says 0.3 I missed it going up to 0.34.

It doesn't seem like I can do it myself, i'd have to get a moderator to do it for me. Since I've been releasing an update practically every other day, I didn't really want to constantly trouble them with updating my own thread.

I decided that I wouldn't change the title for every smaller update (0.3x), but would change it to 0.4 once the planned big additions get released. But I have made it a rule to post an update notice for every small update of late. Exactly so people who subscribe to this thread would be notified.

As of right now, I'm not planning on ever releasing a v0.35, in stead i'll be slowly working towards jumping straight to 0.4 with one big update.

If I'm lucky (and very very multitaskingly fast), I'll get 0.4 all done and tested by the end of next week. If I'm not, you'll probably have to wait another month before I'm done, since I will be starting an internship which will probably take up most of my waking hours.

But of course, if a really annoying bug is found, i'll release another bugfix. Though all seems good right now, it seems the major(ish) bugs that snuck in to 0.33 have all been found and gently showed the door (fingers crossed:D)

I think where my problem is that I think I need a remote command to relay the signal when all I need is a remote control to relay the signal? Which if that's right, I feel quite silly and apologize.

Nah no need for any apologies. This is a very complicated plugin, and there is somewhat of a learning curve. It took the greater part of the community almost a week to get their heads around the core concepts. And the greater part of this community are awesomely intelligent people.

[CrashnBurn]

As Leon said, you don't need crew on each relay, you just need a relay chain (unmanned) to get to a manned command relay (or Mission control at KSC), if you can't get to the command relay directly. The process is semi-automagical (you still need to point dishes if it's further that 5000km)...if there is a way to connect a chain to get to a command relay, it will happen.

Remember line-of-sight is required for a link between relays.

A good idea is to put an unmanned "relay rover" with a few dishes and a short range antenna at KSC so you can "point" from KSC to the MUN, Minimus, etc.

Put a 5-kerbal (I set it to three kerbals because the crewtank is bugged) command relay on the opposite side of Kerbin from KSC and you'll have pretty good coverage.

Add a couple of geosync. sat's and you're good for everywhere (in range) except the far side of the moons.

[MrPwner]

I also missed the updates after 0.3, didn't check the thread itself. (I usually check when I see the modmaker replied to the thread)

With the interplanetary dishes I can really start making interplanetary exploration craft!

I have a question/suggestion, though.

When 0.17 comes out, I plan to send unmanned probes first, but without a command station it's going to take too long to relay the signal to effectively maneuver and land. With the Satellite Relay Network mod I simulated/roleplayed an onboard autonomous flightcomputer by just setting it to local control.

Is there something you can do, like a part that enables you to set local control when a mechjebpart or -pod or something is present on your vessel?

[i0nicx]

Thanks guys you rock, I would of quoted but I'm on my phone.

[JDP]

I also missed the updates after 0.3, didn't check the thread itself. (I usually check when I see the modmaker replied to the thread)

With the interplanetary dishes I can really start making interplanetary exploration craft!

I have a question/suggestion, though.

When 0.17 comes out, I plan to send unmanned probes first, but without a command station it's going to take too long to relay the signal to effectively maneuver and land. With the Satellite Relay Network mod I simulated/roleplayed an onboard autonomous flightcomputer by just setting it to local control.

Is there something you can do, like a part that enables you to set local control when a mechjebpart or -pod or something is present on your vessel?

Actually it can be done, with great difficulty. In testing the interplanetary class dish I went for a kerbol mission, taking my probe as far away from kerbin to give a delay of over 2 minutes. I found that it was actually possible to perform orbital maneuvers if you are very very patient, use low thrust and guesstimate at least 2 minutes in advance. The SAS fix i found and implemented all the way back in v0,30 turned out to be invaluable, as SAS actually functions as sort of an autopilot, only SAS activation/deactivation is delayed, but the attitude corrections applied by SAS aren't. I don't think it will be possible to actually land on any planets, but you could maybe get your probe in orbit.

I do get your point about the RP value of having an override. So I guess I could add in a small PartModule in v0.4 (or at least before KSP 0.17). It could be added to any part config without interfering with anything else and I would probably make sure that it would only work if the vessel was in contact with the relay network and had a MechJeb module.

Hmm... while thinking about this I got a completely different idea; I might actually have come to a level of programming skills where I'm able to make a very very simple autopilot myself. I'm unsure whether I can figure out how to make it automatically turn the vessel in the different directions (Something akin to Smart A.S.S), but I could definetely give it thruster control. You'd have to turn your vessel manually and with great care, taking into account the signal delay. But once you have your vessel oriented correctly (lets say retrograde) you could bring up the autopilot menu, tell it at what % you want your engines to burn and at what speed to stop the burn or how long you want the burn to last. If i wrote the autopilot myself it would be a lot more simple to integrate with signal delays (meaning that if the signal delay is 2 minutes it would take 2 minutes from the time you press "go" to it actually doing anything).

Thinking further, I could probably also add the option of telling the autopilot to maintain a certain speed (for powered landing). This would probably make only stop-n'-drop landigs possible though.

I'm getting all excited thinking about this possibility. I think a crude autopilot like this would fit well with RemoteTech; it's very low-tech, insanely challenging, but not at all the only option you have of doing interplanetary spaceflight.

Oh, and BTW I just found an exploit that I should have forseen. Currently you have delayless control of your spacecraft until the signal delay has caught up. Giving my kerbol orbiting vessel two minutes of instant control each time i switch back and forward to it. Hurry up and exploit it before it's fixed in 0.4

[Joshman_1306]

This is a great mod and I can't wait until the next update.

One question, will there be an option to re-skin certain satellite dishes and/or antennae?

[maxpanic]

Okay, I have a question.

I created a space station which, in addition to a normal command module, has empty crew modules (the DYJ crewtank).

I then created a vessel to bring Kerbals to the station. My intention was to offload all three crew to the station, then remotely deorbit the shuttle vessel. I added a remote processor, remote SAS, and antennae, but once all Kerbals were offloaded I had no control over the shuttle.

So my question is, is remotely controlling a previously-crewed vessel possible, or does the presence of an (empty) command pod mean the remote control functions won't work at all?

[JDP]

...So my question is, is remotely controlling a previously-crewed vessel possible, or does the presence of an (empty) command pod mean the remote control functions won't work at all?

Thats bug # 3 in the list of known bugs (found at the bottom of the OP). I know of no fix for it, I've tried a few things, but all has failed and failed misserably. For the time being it sadly won't be possible. Let's see if r4m0n can work some magic in the next version of MechJeb, though I have no idea if he's actively pursuing a fix for this issue. He is working on fixing issues in MJ debris activation though.

[Alchemist]

The only thing I can think of is setting crew capacity to 0 if the empty vessel is focused and restoring it back when the focus is lost or the vessel unloaded.

[JDP]

The only thing I can think of is setting crew capacity to 0 if the empty vessel is focused and restoring it back when the focus is lost or the vessel unloaded.

I thought about just setting the crew capacity to 0 but discarded the idea because I couldn't think of a way of detecting when to re-add crewcapacity once a kerbal wanted to enter.

I must have derped a bit there. Since your idea is so beautifully simple . I think the simplest way of doing it would be having the removal and readdition of crew capacity being handled by each part. Aha, finally an incentive to having crewable RemoteTech parts & command pods. I could probably even remove any internal space on extra commandpods until they decouple from the main vessel, removing the current visual bug of more than one internal space.

Wonder what the official stance of the devs are on bundling pretty much stock parts, with just a few config edits, in your plugin?

AFAIK there are no other custom hatched command pods and or parts out there other than the crewtank.

(edit) Ohh, and Kosmos, I see.

Edited August 18, 2012 by JDP

[CrashnBurn]

Deep Space Mission pack has two crewable, EVA-able(hatched) pods also.

[Kreuzung]

ExPI contains crewable airlocks for space stations too. You could make a part module that is applied to all crewable parts once you make the vessel uncrewable, holds the crew count of it and resets it if the active vessel is an EVA and less than 10 meters away or so...

Pseudocode just because I can and I tend to spontaneously invent new part modules:

to make uncrewable:

foreach (Part p in vessel.parts)

p.modules.Add("ModuleUncrewable"); // assigns part module to the vessel

SendMessage("MakeUncrewable"); // sends the message to make parts uncrewable to all parts and their modules on the vessel

And here the part module:

ModuleUncrewable : PartModule
{
[KSPField]//Automatic persistence
public int crewCapacity;

public void MakeUncrewable()
{
crewCapacity = part.crewCapacity; //sets module crew capacity to parts crew capacity
part.crewCapacity = 0; // there goes my seat...
}

void Update()
{
if(!HighLogic.LoadedSceneIsFlight()) return; // Ignore me in VAB/SPH!
if(FlightGlobals.activeVessel.isEVA && Vector3.Distance(part.transform.position, FlightGlobals.activeVessel.GetWorldCenterOfMass()) < 10) //Player is on EVA < 10m away
part.SendMessage("MakeCrewable");
}

//Exercise 1: Implement public void MakeCrewable() to reset the crewCapactiy and then remove the part module

}

I just wrote a part module in a quick reply box from boredom

[JDP]

...I just wrote a part module in a quick reply box from boredom

Not a day goes by without this community surprising me, Thanks a lot m8 .

Yeah, maybe i do need to man up and start experimenting with part modules. Well, I'll have to learn how to work with partModules anyway since I'd probably want to remove the internalSpace of all parts except the command pod and then readding it for the part in the decoupled vessel with the largest crewcapacity. That way decoupled crewable vessels can still have an internal space, but without it glitching while it's still attached to the mothership.

I'd also have to have MakeUnCrewable be contingent on the part.vessel having no crew to make sure that I don't accidentally delete kerbals.

[Kreuzung]

my code example assumes that you execute the code after checking everything. You already know how to count Kerbals, I don't:sticktongue:

[rkman]

I'm not entirely sure if this is due to Remotetech, it happened once before but i'm not sure if i had a Remotepod on the craft.

After restarting the game this craft with a Remotepod has fallen on its side but the Remotepod is still oriented as though the craft is standing upright (i had put it between the two fueltanks, it's an unmanned refueling station).

The stage list is no longer visible and engines and landing legs don't work any more, but the plugins (Remotetech, Mechjeb and Fuel Transfer) still seem to be functional.

[JDP]

I'm not entirely sure if this is due to Remotetech, it happened once before but i'm not sure if i had a Remotepod on the craft.

After restarting the game this craft with a Remotepod has fallen on its side but the Remotepod is still oriented as though the craft is standing upright (i had put it between the two fueltanks, it's an unmanned refueling station).

Hmm, I've had something similar happen in the very early stages of development, before release even. the whole ship would be rotated sideways and be completely uncontrollable and completely unaffected by physics. The cause turned out to be an uncaught exception thrown by incorectly iterating through a list of strings. something akin to that might happen here. If it happens again, try looking at the debug menu and see if an error is printed to the console. It might still not be RemoteTech, but I find it very curious that only the RT part has a physical flaw.

Is your refueling station activated debris, or an original vessel?