NASA Vanguard 1 in KSP

[Sxldierman]

Hello!

I have been playing KSP for a little while and thought it would be fun to recreate some of the missions done by NASA. Here is a link to the mods I have currently installed https://pasteboard.co/GEkhuak.png

Link to info on the project provided by NASA https://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/nmc/spacecraftDisplay.do?id=1958-002B

Link to a diagram of the rocket https://pasteboard.co/GEki22v.jpg

My main issue has been fuel. The Engine used in the actual rocket requires Kerosene and Liquid Oxygen. But there is always a flame out and I'm forced to use default fuels to get the engine to work. 

Other issues are fairings (mostly an aesthetic issue) and what guidance system to use. 

Any help making this happen will be greatly appreciated.

Thank you!

 

 

[Spricigo]

Welcome to the forums. 

May you elaborate on the situation and actual issues.  Like which modes are using,  and what are the aspects that you think are important for a faithful recreation. 

I'm guessing that will be a tricky question to offer help,  that will involve mod specific knowledge and aesthetics  considerations.  But if we can help,  so we'll do. 

 

[Sxldierman]

12 minutes ago, Spricigo said:

Welcome to the forums. 

May you elaborate on the situation and actual issues.  Like which modes are using,  and what are the aspects that you think are important for a faithful recreation. 

I'm guessing that will be a tricky question to offer help,  that will involve mod specific knowledge and aesthetics  considerations.  But if we can help,  so we'll do. 

 

Thank you for the welcome!

The modules include procedural fuel tanks, so that I can make them according to the dimensions used in the real rocket. I am using the only Vanguard 1 model available for KSP. 

As far as de-couple, I used procedural de-couplers as well. For the fairing I used Procedural Fairings, I think that is part of the vanilla game (?) not really sure. The engines used in stage 1 and 2 are mod versions of the real engines.

Stage 3's engine is a procedural rocket with included fuel that burns for 30s. 

I haven't been able to find more info on what other things where attached to the first stage engine, guidance mechanism or systems, parachutes, heat shields. I have managed to get extremely close to the real life weight and height however.

Thank you again and I hope this is some of the information that can help!

Sxldierman

[Spricigo]

OK,  this subforum is more for "I tried to build this rocket and it's not working"  or "my game is broken" kind of questions. 

Looks like you have this mostly sorted out (you mentioned an issue forcing you to use a different fuel type). 

Since your problems is more about finding info about the real life mission you are trying to reenact, I suggest to ask a moderator to move your thread to this subforum where there is more chance someone know how to find it. 

I sometimes have browsed this site for info,  but never needed the level of detail you are looking for. 

 

 

[Sxldierman]

9 hours ago, Spricigo said:

OK,  this subforum is more for "I tried to build this rocket and it's not working"  or "my game is broken" kind of questions. 

Looks like you have this mostly sorted out (you mentioned an issue forcing you to use a different fuel type). 

Since your problems is more about finding info about the real life mission you are trying to reenact, I suggest to ask a moderator to move your thread to this subforum where there is more chance someone know how to find it. 

I sometimes have browsed this site for info,  but never needed the level of detail you are looking for. 

 

 

Thank you for the advice.

I understand what the use of this sub forum is for now. My main problem is that the Engine is NOT using Kerosene even tho it is in the tank and officially requires or is able to use Kerosene. I'll try to post this in the right sub forum.

[OhioBob]

11 hours ago, Sxldierman said:

I haven't been able to find more info on what other things where attached to the first stage engine, guidance mechanism or systems, parachutes, heat shields. I have managed to get extremely close to the real life weight and height however.

I don't know all that much about Vanguard, but I feel pretty confident that nothing had parachutes or heat shields.  And the link you provided says about the second stage "This stage contained the complete guidance and control system."  This is also shown in the illustration, labeled "Inertial Reference System".

One thing you'll probably not be able to exactly replicate in your recreation is that the first stage includes hydrogen peroxide in addition to the kerosene fuel.  I'm sure the hydrogen peroxide was used as a monopropellant to drive the engine's turbopumps.  The kerosene is the fuel burned in the combustion chamber and ejected out the nozzle to produce thrust.  You'll just have to assume that your mass of liquid fuel includes both kerosene and hydrogen peroxide.

I believe the X-405 first stage engine was gimbaled to provide steering.  I don't believe the AJ10-118 second stage engine was gimbaled, but I don't know for sure.

[Sxldierman]

49 minutes ago, OhioBob said:

I don't know all that much about Vanguard, but I feel pretty confident that nothing had parachutes or heat shields.  And the link you provided says about the second stage "This stage contained the complete guidance and control system."  This is also shown in the illustration, labeled "Inertial Reference System".

One thing you'll probably not be able to exactly replicate in your recreation is that the first stage includes hydrogen peroxide in addition to the kerosene fuel.  I'm sure the hydrogen peroxide was used as a monopropellant to drive the engine's turbopumps.  The kerosene is the fuel burned in the combustion chamber and ejected out the nozzle to produce thrust.  You'll just have to assume that your mass of liquid fuel includes both kerosene and hydrogen peroxide.

I believe the X-405 first stage engine was gimbaled to provide steering.  I don't believe the AJ10-118 second stage engine was gimbaled, but I don't know for sure.

Hello OhioBob!

Thank you kindly for the reply. I agree that for now I'll have to make believe the right fuel works. And honestly It really much of an obstacle.

The reason I am seeking help on how to get the different fuels to work is because RealFuel mod is there and I believe it is supposed to work with SolverEngines (haven't figured out exactly what those are). It was naive of me to assumed the engine mod and fuel mod would compliment each other right out of the box.

Thank you again!

[OhioBob]

I'm not familiar with SolverEngines.  I played around briefly with Real Fuels over a year ago but uninstalled it.  Real Fuels is pretty cool for realism junkies, but it complicated things too much for my taste.

[wumpus]

On 8/5/2017 at 9:52 PM, Sxldierman said:

My main issue has been fuel. The Engine used in the actual rocket requires Kerosene and Liquid Oxygen. But there is always a flame out and I'm forced to use default fuels to get the engine to work. 

That seems to be pretty close to what happened. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVeFkakURXM

The guidence system is presumably the most primitive one you have available.  Also, your link points out that it is in the second stage: presumably it fires the last stage (solid motor) which has no controls at all.  There is nothing provided for reentry (which wasn't expected for 2000 years, but it looks like it will come down in ~200 years).

[DrLicor]

Hey, looking at your mod list, I see all the RSS mods etc, but not Realism Overhaul? If you download this mod, that comes with solverengines etc. all should work just fine. 

[Sxldierman]

On 8/10/2017 at 6:41 AM, DrLicor said:

Hey, looking at your mod list, I see all the RSS mods etc, but not Realism Overhaul? If you download this mod, that comes with solverengines etc. all should work just fine. 

I was under the impression Realism Overhaul wasn't a mod by itself but a compilation of other mods, a lot of which I have installed. Correct me if I'm wrong please. 

I am not at home now, but I will check and consider any and all advice when I get back to my PC.

thank you for the input! 

 

[Sxldierman]

On 8/9/2017 at 10:59 AM, wumpus said:

That seems to be pretty close to what happened. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVeFkakURXM

The guidence system is presumably the most primitive one you have available.  Also, your link points out that it is in the second stage: presumably it fires the last stage (solid motor) which has no controls at all.  There is nothing provided for reentry (which wasn't expected for 2000 years, but it looks like it will come down in ~200 years).

Thanks for the link, is not clear to me if wrong fuel mixtures was the cause for that particular failure. I haven't read up on it. One of the reasons I want to re-create this project is out of respect for the efforts made irl. It still amazes me what they accomplished back then. 

[wumpus]

11 hours ago, Sxldierman said:

Thanks for the link, is not clear to me if wrong fuel mixtures was the cause for that particular failure. I haven't read up on it. One of the reasons I want to re-create this project is out of respect for the efforts made irl. It still amazes me what they accomplished back then. 

I doubt it had anything to do with a wrong fuel mix, probably something to do with the acceleration/vibration of launch.  Things that work well on the test bench haven't necessarily been tested under acceleration, and if any high precision part losses too much of the precision, it can easily come crashing down.

Vanguard typically doesn't get much love because it is thought to have held Von Braun's team back.  Historical accounts tend to mention all the public reasons why Ike pushed the "non military" (it was still run by the Navy, but wasn't using specific missile tech) Vanguard.  Typically such reports sweep under the rug just how dependent US strategic nuclear plans were on former SS Colonel Van Braun (and the rest of his team) and just how many civilians they were responsible for massacring (roughly half in England and half slaves worked to death in Peenemünde).  It made the whole "security clearance" issue look stupid when those were the guys guarding the most valuable secrets in the land.  Ike's decision only looks wrong in hindsight, knowing the issues the Vanguard team had and just how advanced Korelev's Soviet team was.

This whole "stabbed in the back" theory (Van Braun could have launched while Vanguard failed, Alan Shepard could have beaten Yuri Gurgarin into "space" but we launched a chimp instead) ignores just how advanced Korelev's team was.  While Shepard may have gone into "space", Gurgarin went into orbit and KSP players know just how big a difference that is.  Catching up took nearly a decade, and not only a huge pile of money but a nationwide crash course into science and engineering to provide the 50,000 or so people needed to make Apollo happen.

Also, when Vanguard finally flew, it was easily one of the highest satellites in early space.  Don't underestimate the delta-v it had.  I'm glad that Vanguard is finally getting some love.  I also recommend being careful when given a history that makes a lot of assumptions about the "what ifs" of history.  The only real difference an early (earlier than Sputnik) Van Braun launch could really have is reducing the "Sputnik science push" in the US, and it isn't absolutely known that they could get a bird in orbit in "6 months".

/sorry about the rant.  I just see this thing too often in non-KSP circles.

[Sxldierman]

5 minutes ago, wumpus said:

I doubt it had anything to do with a wrong fuel mix, probably something to do with the acceleration/vibration of launch.  Things that work well on the test bench haven't necessarily been tested under acceleration, and if any high precision part losses too much of the precision, it can easily come crashing down.

Vanguard typically doesn't get much love because it is thought to have held Von Braun's team back.  Historical accounts tend to mention all the public reasons why Ike pushed the "non military" (it was still run by the Navy, but wasn't using specific missile tech) Vanguard.  Typically such reports sweep under the rug just how dependent US strategic nuclear plans were on former SS Colonel Van Braun (and the rest of his team) and just how many civilians they were responsible for massacring (roughly half in England and half slaves worked to death in Peenemünde).  It made the whole "security clearance" issue look stupid when those were the guys guarding the most valuable secrets in the land.  Ike's decision only looks wrong in hindsight, knowing the issues the Vanguard team had and just how advanced Korelev's Soviet team was.

This whole "stabbed in the back" theory (Van Braun could have launched while Vanguard failed, Alan Shepard could have beaten Yuri Gurgarin into "space" but we launched a chimp instead) ignores just how advanced Korelev's team was.  While Shepard may have gone into "space", Gurgarin went into orbit and KSP players know just how big a difference that is.  Catching up took nearly a decade, and not only a huge pile of money but a nationwide crash course into science and engineering to provide the 50,000 or so people needed to make Apollo happen.

Also, when Vanguard finally flew, it was easily one of the highest satellites in early space.  Don't underestimate the delta-v it had.  I'm glad that Vanguard is finally getting some love.  I also recommend being careful when given a history that makes a lot of assumptions about the "what ifs" of history.  The only real difference an early (earlier than Sputnik) Van Braun launch could really have is reducing the "Sputnik science push" in the US, and it isn't absolutely known that they could get a bird in orbit in "6 months".

/sorry about the rant.  I just see this thing too often in non-KSP circles.

Not a rant at all, more of a mini history lesson, which I love! 

I'll start from scratch once I get back home, the fuel mod may not be needed at all. My true goal is to send the module itself into orbit using exactly the same dimensions. Hopefully i can accomplish that using procedural fuel tanks, parts, etc... 

i am spending some time in Washington D.C and just visited the air and space museum. Needless to say, I am inspired.

 

[DrLicor]

You're partly wrong. Realism overhaul is a mod itself but comes with a lot of dependencies. The mod itself rescales parts, adds ullage, adds real engine types with their real versions. The dependencies of RO can all funtion on their own, or at least without RO. RO overhauls them completely to the real thing. Like the real life engines with their real features. The stock game is really underpowered and small, RO does counter that. For the real features you could check out their page and some yt video. I really don't wont to go back to the stock game now I've been playing RO

Edited August 13, 2017 by DrLicor

[Sxldierman]

6 hours ago, DrLicor said:

You're partly wrong. Realism overhaul is a mod itself but comes with a lot of dependencies. The mod itself rescales parts, adds ullage, adds real engine types with their real versions. The dependencies of RO can all funtion on their own, or at least without RO. RO overhauls them completely to the real thing. Like the real life engines with their real features. The stock game is really underpowered and small, RO does counter that. For the real features you could check out their page and some yt video. I really don't wont to go back to the stock game now I've been playing RO

Thank you for the response!

Would you be able to put a list of the exact RO mods you have? I'd like to install them manually. CKAN has never worked for me. It would be greatly appreciated. 

I thought the mods I had were pretty much everything RO is, guess I was partly wrong as you said. 

Again, thanks!

[DrLicor]

45 minutes ago, Sxldierman said:

Thank you for the response!

Would you be able to put a list of the exact RO mods you have? I'd like to install them manually. CKAN has never worked for me. It would be greatly appreciated. 

I thought the mods I had were pretty much everything RO is, guess I was partly wrong as you said. 

Again, thanks!

Well, that will be a lot haha. But ofcourse. I'm not home atm, but I'll be in a few hours I think. 

[DrLicor]

The best you can do for a good RO install is go to this github: https://github.com/KSP-RO

It contains the RO mod itself up to date and the other downloads. For install you can watch videos of Tyler Raiz, he did a good job in explaining. It's a playlist which also contains the very basics to very usefull information. I really recommend watching it, if you have no experience with the whole RO thing.

For now, this is my modlist:

NearFutureProps
NearFuturePropulsion
NearFutureSolar
NearFutureSpacecraft
NEBULA
NodeSplitter
PlanetShine
PreciseManeuver
RecoveryController
ReentryParticleEffect
SovietEngines
SSTU
Trajectories
TriggerTech
TweakScale
UbioWeldingLtd
VesselView
WaypointManager
toolbar-settings.dat
[x] Science!
AnimatedDecouplers
B9AnimationModules
BahaSP
blackheart
CameraFocusChanger
CommunityCategoryKit
CrewManifest
DistantObject
EasyBoard
FMRS
IndicatorLights
KerbalHacks
KerbalInventorySystemNoFun
KIS
Launchers Pack
MagicSmokeIndustries
MainSailor
NavyFish
NearFutureConstruction
Launchers Pack
MagicSmokeIndustries
MainSailor
NavyFish
NearFutureConstruction
NearFutureProps
NearFuturePropulsion
NearFutureSolar
NearFutureSpacecraft
NEBULA
NodeSplitter
PlanetShine
PreciseManeuver
RecoveryController
ReentryParticleEffect
SovietEngines
SSTU
Trajectories
TriggerTech
TweakScale
UbioWeldingLtd
VesselView
WaypointManager
toolbar-settings.dat
[x] Science!
AnimatedDecouplers
B9AnimationModules
BahaSP
blackheart
CameraFocusChanger
CommunityCategoryKit
CrewManifest
DistantObject
EasyBoard
FMRS
IndicatorLights
KerbalHacks
KerbalInventorySystemNoFun
KIS

 

Keep in mind, that maybe not every mod you have now, is compatible with RO

[Sxldierman]

On 8/13/2017 at 5:28 PM, DrLicor said:

The best you can do for a good RO install is go to this github: https://github.com/KSP-RO

It contains the RO mod itself up to date and the other downloads. For install you can watch videos of Tyler Raiz, he did a good job in explaining. It's a playlist which also contains the very basics to very usefull information. I really recommend watching it, if you have no experience with the whole RO thing.

For now, this is my modlist:

NearFutureProps
NearFuturePropulsion
NearFutureSolar
NearFutureSpacecraft
NEBULA
NodeSplitter
PlanetShine
PreciseManeuver
RecoveryController
ReentryParticleEffect
SovietEngines
SSTU
Trajectories
TriggerTech
TweakScale
UbioWeldingLtd
VesselView
WaypointManager
toolbar-settings.dat
[x] Science!
AnimatedDecouplers
B9AnimationModules
BahaSP
blackheart
CameraFocusChanger
CommunityCategoryKit
CrewManifest
DistantObject
EasyBoard
FMRS
IndicatorLights
KerbalHacks
KerbalInventorySystemNoFun
KIS
Launchers Pack
MagicSmokeIndustries
MainSailor
NavyFish
NearFutureConstruction
Launchers Pack
MagicSmokeIndustries
MainSailor
NavyFish
NearFutureConstruction
NearFutureProps
NearFuturePropulsion
NearFutureSolar
NearFutureSpacecraft
NEBULA
NodeSplitter
PlanetShine
PreciseManeuver
RecoveryController
ReentryParticleEffect
SovietEngines
SSTU
Trajectories
TriggerTech
TweakScale
UbioWeldingLtd
VesselView
WaypointManager
toolbar-settings.dat
[x] Science!
AnimatedDecouplers
B9AnimationModules
BahaSP
blackheart
CameraFocusChanger
CommunityCategoryKit
CrewManifest
DistantObject
EasyBoard
FMRS
IndicatorLights
KerbalHacks
KerbalInventorySystemNoFun
KIS

 

Keep in mind, that maybe not every mod you have now, is compatible with RO

Very much appreciated! I'll check each one when I get back from D.C. 

Thank you! 

 

 

 

[Sxldierman]

@DrLicor I'd like to thank you for pointing me in the right direction. Today I've managed to put together most of what I need to replicated the Vanguard project. 

Also thank you to everyone else who took time to help out and weigh in. 

Thanks!

Sxldierman