Behind the scenes (SPOILERS!) on last night's GoT

[tater]

Also, he has yet to tell Cersei that Tyrion didn't kill their son. Then there is the whole issue of Jon almost certainly (seems certain in the TV show, anyway) being Daenerys' cousin (son of her brother). Course that's well into marriageable for that family  .

7 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

BTW, is GRRM still involved in the production at all? Such a big clash with no (confirmed) main character deaths feels more in line with standard Hollywood fantasy than the rest of this series.

Yeah, he is. He has apparently told them about the way the arc is going to go in advance of him actually finishing. I keep hoping I'll bump into him when we visit Santa Fe (which we do fairly often, it's under 40 minutes from my house).

Edited August 8, 2017 by tater

[MaxxQ]

7 minutes ago, tater said:

Also, he has yet to tell Cersei that Tyrion didn't kill their son. Then there is the whole issue of Jon almost certainly (seems certain in the TV show, anyway) being Daenerys' cousin (son of her brother). Course that's well into marriageable for that family  .

Yeah, he is. He has apparently told them about the way the arc is going to go in advance of him actually finishing. I keep hoping I'll bump into him when we visit Santa Fe (which we do fairly often, it's under 40 minutes from my house).

Jon is Dany's nephew, not cousin.  Doesn't negate that as far as Targaryans are concerned, they can marry.

Edited August 8, 2017 by MaxxQ

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, tater said:

So the choice is execute the Kingslayer, or Tyrion gets to reciprocate and advocate to save his brother.

No, now things get complicated.

23 minutes ago, monstah said:

Come to think of it, that's an interesting arc for all of them. Jaime's the Kingslayer, he killed Danny's very father. But then, she abhors her father, and knows just how bad he was for his people.

Exactly.

My wife and I had a theory that Jaime would eventually end up killing Cersei, but that may not be possible now.

[monstah]

10 minutes ago, tater said:

Also, he has yet to tell Cersei that Tyrion didn't kill their son. Then there is the whole issue of Jon almost certainly (seems certain in the TV show, anyway) being Daenerys' cousin (son of her brother).

Well, the second part doesn't have much to do with the battle scene and its implications. The first, however, is very relevant. Did they give the character such knowledge, just to have him die and not tell anyone?

Granted, that scene with Olenna could have been just to break the character, not really to further any plot. Also, he could tell Tyrion... who has less than zero credibility with Cersei, in any case.

Just now, regex said:

My wife and I had a theory that Jaime would eventually end up killing Cersei, but that may not be possible now.

Me and my wife, too!

[HebaruSan]

1 minute ago, regex said:

My wife and I had a theory that Jaime would eventually end up killing Cersei, but that may not be possible now.

Just now, monstah said:

Me and my wife, too!

We're still rooting for Arya. I wish they could film ten different versions of the finale, each with Cersei killed by a different character, and then send them out to the various distributors at random, just to watch the chaos (which is a ladder).

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

We're still rooting for Arya. I wish they could film ten different versions of the finale, each with Cersei killed by a different character, and then send them out to the various distributors at random, just to watch the chaos (which is a ladder).

HAHAHA

Arya is probably the character I'm most conflicted about in the series, but the moral ambiguity, the back-and-forth of dynastic struggle, and every single obvious case of PTSD muddies the water so much...

Edited August 8, 2017 by regex

[tater]

53 minutes ago, MaxxQ said:

Jon is Dany's nephew, not cousin.  Doesn't negate that as far as Targaryans are concerned, they can marry.

Oops, messed that up. Obviously son of her brother is her nephew.

Yeah, I had thought about the kingslayer having to kill his sister as she descends into willingness to kill everyone and anyone. Arya is indeed fascinating.

Another whole arc of this story are the various religions---some of which demonstrably have something (actual evidence) behind them (which is bizarre in its own right, I'd like to ask GRRM about that).

Related to the actual topic, when and who will end up riding the other dragons? Tyron clearly got along with them at some level, as they didn't kill him. Jon, perhaps?

 

Edited August 8, 2017 by tater

[HebaruSan]

7 minutes ago, tater said:

Aya is indeed fascinating.

I find hers the most effective storyline in terms of moral ambiguity. I normally can't help being judgmental when a character does anything that's not Lawful Good, but in the case of the young Ms. Stark, the experiences she's gone through are just enough to make me sympathize.

7 minutes ago, tater said:

Another whole arc of this story are the various religions---some of which demonstrably have something (actual evidence) behind them (which is bizarre in its own right, I'd like to ask GRRM about that).

But there have also been moments when the practitioners of those same religions have been dead wrong about things they thought the religion told them, for example Melisandre's certainty that Stannis was destined to take the iron throne. There are Greater Forces out there somewhere, but their true form and status is not correctly understood by anyone.

7 minutes ago, tater said:

Related to the actual topic, when and who will end up riding the other dragons? Tyron clearly got along with them at some level, as they didn't kill him. Jon, perhaps?

There's a fan theory that Tyrion is also a Secret Targaryen, based on Tywin's grumbling about "since I could not prove you were not mine" (emphasis on "prove"---he had reasons to suspect). (Also, Jon and Tyrion's mothers both died in childbirth, which could be justified with an argument that Targaryens are dangerous to carry in one's womb if you're not one.)

Three dragons, three Targaryens. In my mind the only remaining question is how they find out.

[monstah]

27 minutes ago, tater said:

Another whole arc of this story are the various religions---some of which demonstrably have something (actual evidence) behind them (which is bizarre in its own right, I'd like to ask GRRM about that).

There's something I find interesting there, which reminds me of D&D.

See, in D&D, all the gods are objectively real. They show up, they do stuff. Not a single character in that world believes they don't exist. Religion in that world is not about which belief is true, but about which one of the different powerful things do I follow (and the question of what makes a god a God rather than a very powerful but mundane being is left muddy).

Westeros so far has shown 2 religions, an "old one" and a "new one"; and Essos has given us "the one true god". Now, the Old Religion worships the Children of the Forest and those old wise trees, which are objectively true, and the new religion seems pretty content to acknowledge that. We haven't seen objective proof of the Seven Gods' existence, but Davos' survival at Black Water strongly hinted of the Drowned God's favor.

 

So I don't think it's that bizarre. We're just seeing a world where very powerful and old... things... are objectively true, and whether or not they are Gods in any "true" sense of the word, they are worshiped as such.

16 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

There's a fan theory that Tyrion is also a Secret Targaryen, based on Tywin's grumbling about "since I could not prove you were not mine" (emphasis on "prove"---he had reasons to suspect).

I've heard it, too. I don't know if it's true, but Tyrion is a beloved enough character I surely wouldn't mind seeing him riding a friggin' dragon.

Also, one of the three dragons might be killed, so only the two Targaryens would ride. I mean, Dany has (*sigh* again) shown her lack of tactics when the first arrow (spear?) passed by her and Drogon, and instead of dodging the second she dived straight into it. I didn't expect the writers to kill a dragon on the first shot, but seeing that I thought, "yeah, it's gone".

[tater]

19 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

But there have also been moments when the practitioners of those same religions have been dead wrong about things they thought the religion told them, for example Melisandre's certainty that Stannis was destined to take the iron throne. There are Greater Forces out there somewhere, but their true form and status is not correctly understood by anyone.

The practitioners being wrong is fine, they are people. What I meant was the bizarre (for the real world) fact that there is anything demonstrably true and miraculous at all--even if it is misattributed to gods, and is perhaps just magic (I'm unsure what the difference is there, frankly).

Maybe they are just different versions of magic, attributed to gods by different cultures. 

 

[HebaruSan]

7 minutes ago, tater said:

even if it is misattributed to gods, and is perhaps just magic (I'm unsure what the difference is there, frankly).

Exactly. There's something that we would identify as supernatural, but the people attributing it to gods are doing so based on evidence not much stronger than assumptions and intuition. It might be gods, it might be A God, it might be the Force, it might be the pure will of the practitioner transmuted into mass and energy. All they know is that when you do this or that ritual, strange things happen.

Maybe Daenerys's new imperial administration can start a Westerosi Metaphysical Foundation to fund properly rigorous research into these questions.

[monstah]

Aaaalrighty, the thread took a wrong turn somewhere... let's please not discuss these things here, yes?  

[monstah]

No, seriously you guys. We have rules in this forum, and some content is off-limits. I understand that it's a serious matter for some people, and I respect their opinions, this is just not the place. I went ahead and removed some content, including what led to the more recent messages. Thanks for understanding