Mars Colonization Discussion Thread

[Green Baron]

Sure at one time in the future on the moon or mars somebody will dang in a loose screw with a stone right at hand and contemplate about the definition of "stone age".

[DAL59]

19 hours ago, PB666 said:

Really, traveling around in fake space suits is preparing people for mars, more or less fancy toys for over grown 5-year-olds.

This trains people on procedures, and how much time they will spend on various activities.  

[PB666]

19 minutes ago, Nibb31 said:

Don't be stupid.

Any high-tech spacecraft is going to be designed with reliability in mind. That means the less possible moving parts and manual backup for most vital equipment.

As a backup, why not ?.,

How would a pneumatic hammer be superior to a normal hammer or screwdriver ? The ISS uses special zero-torque screwdrivers for EVA because zero-G, but on Mars, they will be likely to have power tools with manual tools as a backup.

Evaluating how practical it is to perform various tasks with various tools is pretty useful work.

Power tools require batteries, batteries have a finite life in terms of recharging cycles. The alternative is to be dragging around extension cords.

I frankly will use a power tool if its within a certain distance, but there is a reason, a properly designed tool allows one to apply maximum force (weight) to a screw while applying twisting force. This means there is a smaller chance of fouling the head of the screw but a bigger chance of breaking the head of the screw off (such as stainless steel screws). To solve the stainless steel screw problem after threading the hole for a screw I use a sacrifice screw to clean the threads out and then screw in with power drill and applying torque to the desired level.

Lets face it, any colony on Mars will require supply drops, they are expensive as hell so putting really expensive batteries in the supplies is a no brainer, the battery would need to be 10,000$ per unit to justify a lower cost battery. Based on that you are going to send the most expensive battery/drill system that will do the job.

1 minute ago, DAL59 said:

This trains people on procedures, and how much time they will spend on various activities.  

What about the difference in time in putting on a real space suit, the added difficulty in breathing in a real space suit with lower pressure, the effort and time not to damage the suit in use (a pressurized suit is going to be more of a pin cushion relative to an unpressurized suit), the effort required to detox the suit back at the station, the effort of getting out of a real suit and staying mars dust free and the added effort of building a real mars shelther that is also free of real martian dust.

[DAL59]

6 minutes ago, PB666 said:

What about the difference in time in putting on a real space suit,

They simulate that by waiting in the airlock to pretend their decompressing.  

7 minutes ago, PB666 said:

the effort required to detox the suit back at the station

suitports

[Nibb31]

16 minutes ago, PB666 said:

Power tools require batteries, batteries have a finite life in terms of recharging cycles. The alternative is to be dragging around extension cords.

Batteries aren't the only parts that can fail. You're still going to want manual screwdrivers, spanners, and pliers. Of course they'll have power tools, but sometimes you just need a BFH.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Nibb31

[DAL59]

http://marspedia.org/Home

http://www.marssociety.org/mars-society-partners-marspedia-project-help-build-mars-online-encyclopedia/

[Nibb31]

28 minutes ago, PB666 said:

What about the difference in time in putting on a real space suit, the added difficulty in breathing in a real space suit with lower pressure, the effort and time not to damage the suit in use (a pressurized suit is going to be more of a pin cushion relative to an unpressurized suit), the effort required to detox the suit back at the station, the effort of getting out of a real suit and staying mars dust free and the added effort of building a real mars shelther that is also free of real martian dust.

Obviously, it's not about how much time it takes to use or maintain specific equipment that doesn't exist yet. This isn't about training for a mission. It's about learning about general organization and mission planning, things like the optimum number of crew members, skill sets, psychology, human factors, base layout, storage, communication, planning daily activities, as well as food, supplies, etc...

These are all things that are better worked on beforehand than when people are actually on Mars or even in the planning stages of an actual mission. Are you implying that these human factors studies are unnecessary ?

Edited November 19, 2017 by Nibb31

[PB666]

10 minutes ago, DAL59 said:

http://marspedia.org/Home

http://www.marssociety.org/mars-society-partners-marspedia-project-help-build-mars-online-encyclopedia/

Why are you spamming these links, they have already been posted before?

Oh I forgot one thing about power drills, all of them have a fan inline with the rotor to cool them down. Since the air in Mars is like 1/15th the density of our atmosphere, the cooling effect is alot less.

To actually use power drills you need a device designed to work on Mars, not earth which means Earth-training with drills requires an improvised tool.

Edited November 19, 2017 by PB666

[wumpus]

54 minutes ago, Nibb31 said:

Batteries aren't the only parts that can fail. You're still going to want manual screwdrivers, spanners, and pliers. Of course they'll have power tools, but sometimes you just need a BFH.

How many of these are sufficiently *expected* to fail that you would require spares shlepped from Earth?  I'd expect Martians to break out the 3d printer* if a wrench broke (or you needed a specific "breaker bar" wrench).

I'd look into some means of recycling batteries.  Lead acid batteries might even get a resurgence if the chemical process of re-smelting lead and reconstructing HCl are within the chemical capacity of our Mars base (and Lithium ion and similar are not).  Hydrogen fuel cells are also a no-brainer: assuming the catalyst will outlast Li-ion batteries (and other more exotic varieties from Earth), you wouldn't bother with batteries and go straight to fuel cells.

While independence is a long way away, every tool should be looked at in a "can we repair/rebuild/remanufacture it on Mars?  If not, can we replace it with something we can?

* Obviously the 3d printer is typically a last-chance thing considering the mass of the printer and a presumably limited printing life.  I'd suggest using  CNC subtractive techniques any time you need real strength (assuming you didn't just weld up the breaker bar), but that assumes nearly "free" power to recycle the shavings into forged stock.  The Moon (and inward) may be more likely to have enough sunlight for such "free" heat, while Mars gets a bit iffy (but I still expect a massive solar oven).

[tater]

If any Mars colonization project doesn't include a full set of "manual" tools, they all deserve to die.

Seriously.

[PB666]

3 minutes ago, tater said:

If any Mars colonization project doesn't include a full set of "manual" tools, they all deserve to die.

Seriously.

[Nibb31]

1 hour ago, wumpus said:

How many of these are sufficiently *expected* to fail that you would require spares shlepped from Earth?  I'd expect Martians to break out the 3d printer* if a wrench broke (or you needed a specific "breaker bar" wrench).

Wrenches, pliers, drill bits, are typically made of extremely strong forged steel, not 3D printer alloy or something that you can carve out with a CNC machine.

The whole point of these studies is to figure out this sort of thing before people get stuck on Mars wondering what tools they should have brought along or what is the best layout for a hab module, or who gets to wash the dishes.

 

[DAL59]

2 hours ago, PB666 said:

Why are you spamming these links, they have already been posted before?

?

[kerbiloid]

10 hours ago, Nibb31 said:

16 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

With manual pumps?

As a backup, why not ?.,

Manual hammers: as a backup, why not?

10 hours ago, Nibb31 said:

How would a pneumatic hammer be superior to a normal hammer

It allows to press a (button? thing?) and break a stone without a pathetic scratching?
It allows to break ten stones instead of one?
It allows both of them to break the same amount of stones?

Spoiler

 

To be clear: I don't mean the pneumatic drills used by road workers, but something like a pneumatic pistol used in a slaughterhouse to crash a skull, but with a strong (crowbar?).

Edited November 20, 2017 by kerbiloid

[wumpus]

19 hours ago, Nibb31 said:

Wrenches, pliers, drill bits, are typically made of extremely strong forged steel, not 3D printer alloy or something that you can carve out with a CNC machine.

The whole point of these studies is to figure out this sort of thing before people get stuck on Mars wondering what tools they should have brought along or what is the best layout for a hab module, or who gets to wash the dishes.

I'm pretty sure you can use CNCs to carve from forged billets.  The real problem would be re-forging your scraps into new ones (absolutely mandatory), I wouldn't be surprised if that made tool building impossible (along with the obvious additional wear on your CNC tools for dealing with extra strong stock).

- I really need to read "Packing for Mars".  I've enjoyed other Mary Roach works.

[tater]

 

[Green Baron]

On the danger of repeating myself :-):

"Never judge an outcrop from afar !"

Edit: but that's what it looks more like to me. I only didn't want to spit in their soup. Haha, i'm kidding, of course. Or am i ?

Edited November 20, 2017 by Green Baron

[DAL59]

On 11/18/2017 at 6:19 PM, PB666 said:

Really, traveling around in fake space suits is preparing people for mars, more or less fancy toys for over grown 5-year-olds

Effect of Streptomyces sp. Isolated from mineral cultures on radish plant development in analog martian soil: Soil was collected around the MDRS location to use it for radish crops. The strain used at the inoculation was isolated from mineral cultures, which are also an extreme environment. The main objective is to prove the effect of this strain in crops in martian analog soil. The main goal of this research was unachieved, but soil samples will be taken to Lima (Peru) for further experiments.  Resistance of Peruvian Altiplano’s crops to martian analog soil: Soils with different compositions where collected on the surroundings of MDRS and on the Salt Wash Member of the Morrison Formation in order to prove the resistance of Peruvian crops and mustard (as control) to mars analog soil. The main goal of the project wasn’t achieved, mostly because an incident during #7 EVA. However, the research will continue on Lima (Peru) using the martian analog soil and two more altiplano’s seeds.   Incidence of consumption of kiwicha cookies in the loss of muscle mass that people living in the analog of Mars experiment: I prepared cookies of kiwicha on Peru, kiwicha is an andin grain that has enormous amounts of protein. Because of this characteristic of the kiwicha grain, my cookies have 10% of protein per portion. During the time that I spend in the rotation, I had to take notes of the mass muscle index. So, I gave the cookies to half of the crew, two units per day. Also, every 4 days I took notes of their weight. With this data, I am going to compare the data of the crew member that ate the cookies and the ones that do not ate the kiwicha cookies.   Properties and Composition of Mars Analog Regolith at MDRS: Regolith samples were collected from different areas within the MDRS area. The study focuses specifically on the Morrison geologic formation. The majority of the samples are from the brushy basin member of this formation. The goal of the project is to classify the soil properties including: soil texture, classification, and composition. The project will continue during the next week.   Sustainability in Mars research stations and extraplanetary settlements: This research searches to answer the question: The Mars Desert Research Station (MDRS) operation can be more sustainable? It is evaluated how environmental, economic, social and personal sustainability issues are presented in the research station and how the MDRS activities would collaborate to Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs), proposing some guidelines to sustainability. It is also important to ask: the results related to Mars would be applied to build a self-sustainable habitat in Earth, mainly in areas affected by climate change, as deserts and semiarid regions as can be seen in Brazilian Northeast (Habitat Marte)? Reviewing the previous research done at MDRS not was identified any research related to sustainability. Because of that, this research presented a high impact to MDRS and Mars research. It is a challenger identifies the main dimensions that would be considered to evaluates a Mars research station in terms of sustainability: this is the great relevance of this research for the future design of Mars settlements.

[PB666]

1 hour ago, DAL59 said:

Effect of Streptomyces sp. Isolated from mineral cultures on radish plant development in analog martian soil: Soil was collected around the MDRS location to use it for radish crops. The strain used at the inoculation was isolated from mineral cultures, which are also an extreme environment. The main objective is to prove the effect of this strain in crops in martian analog soil. The main goal of this research was unachieved, but soil samples will be taken to Lima (Peru) for further experiments.  Resistance of Peruvian Altiplano’s crops to martian analog soil: Soils with different compositions where collected on the surroundings of MDRS and on the Salt Wash Member of the Morrison Formation in order to prove the resistance of Peruvian crops and mustard (as control) to mars analog soil. The main goal of the project wasn’t achieved, mostly because an incident during #7 EVA. However, the research will continue on Lima (Peru) using the martian analog soil and two more altiplano’s seeds.   Incidence of consumption of kiwicha cookies in the loss of muscle mass that people living in the analog of Mars experiment: I prepared cookies of kiwicha on Peru, kiwicha is an andin grain that has enormous amounts of protein. Because of this characteristic of the kiwicha grain, my cookies have 10% of protein per portion. During the time that I spend in the rotation, I had to take notes of the mass muscle index. So, I gave the cookies to half of the crew, two units per day. Also, every 4 days I took notes of their weight. With this data, I am going to compare the data of the crew member that ate the cookies and the ones that do not ate the kiwicha cookies.   Properties and Composition of Mars Analog Regolith at MDRS: Regolith samples were collected from different areas within the MDRS area. The study focuses specifically on the Morrison geologic formation. The majority of the samples are from the brushy basin member of this formation. The goal of the project is to classify the soil properties including: soil texture, classification, and composition. The project will continue during the next week.   Sustainability in Mars research stations and extraplanetary settlements: This research searches to answer the question: The Mars Desert Research Station (MDRS) operation can be more sustainable? It is evaluated how environmental, economic, social and personal sustainability issues are presented in the research station and how the MDRS activities would collaborate to Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs), proposing some guidelines to sustainability. It is also important to ask: the results related to Mars would be applied to build a self-sustainable habitat in Earth, mainly in areas affected by climate change, as deserts and semiarid regions as can be seen in Brazilian Northeast (Habitat Marte)? Reviewing the previous research done at MDRS not was identified any research related to sustainability. Because of that, this research presented a high impact to MDRS and Mars research. It is a challenger identifies the main dimensions that would be considered to evaluates a Mars research station in terms of sustainability: this is the great relevance of this research for the future design of Mars settlements.

Wow I see what you mean, growth of crops in fake not realy soil soil. Who ate the cookies?

[PB666]

On 11/20/2017 at 1:42 PM, tater said:

 

http://start.att.net/news/read/category/news/article/business_insider-scientists_were_wrong_about_discovering_water_on_m-newscred2

[DAL59]

The existence of temporary brines was never needed for a Mars colony.  Still plenty of humidity!  

[PB666]

50 minutes ago, DAL59 said:

The existence of temporary brines was never needed for a Mars colony.  Still plenty of humidity!  

lol, no.

[tater]

10 hours ago, DAL59 said:

The existence of temporary brines was never needed for a Mars colony.  Still plenty of humidity!  

Relative humidity is a measure of the % of water held by the atmosphere that can be held. It doesn't tell you how much can be held. Holding all the H₂O possible means less when the total amount possible to be held is near zero. That value is the Specific Humidity. I cannot seem to find much data on the actual amount of water in the atmosphere (grams per kg of air), except one statement that the martian atmosphere actually holds 10,000 times less water vapor than Earth's, which is on the order of maybe 30g/kg, making Mars ~0.003 g/kg. Given how thin the martian atmosphere is, that means moving a huge volume of air to get even a single gram of water.

 

[Green Baron]

13 hours ago, DAL59 said:

The existence of temporary brines was never needed for a Mars colony.  Still plenty of humidity!  

If you have anything to back that up then bring it on ! I am more than interested, but please no magazines, blogs or wikipedia articles if they are not supported by citable sources.

As to the lineages on Mars and their "reinterpretation": gravity, grain size/roundness and density define a slope angle, an angle of repose, which a dry and loose material can have before it slides down the slope. The features on Mars are apparently at the edge of that angle, without any more cohesion as of water or humidity. I say apparently because nobody has yet been there and actually taken a look at either of the numbers.

The angle plays a role in shifting sand for example or wandering dunes.

It cannot be excluded that brines or, if you want, humidity, might play a role in the initiation of such a process.

On earth this may also be the case with e. g. tremors or some sort of ground motion and, before all, wind that blows things up one side of a dune and deposits it on the other side. But this is speculation and probably not applicable on Mars because Mars is a dry and barren place.

Source:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41561-017-0012-5

Edited November 27, 2017 by Green Baron

[PB666]

1 hour ago, Green Baron said:

If you have anything to back that up then bring it on ! I am more than interested, but please no magazines, blogs or wikipedia articles if they are not supported by citable sources.

As to the lineages on Mars and their "reinterpretation": gravity, grain size/roundness and density define a slope angle, an angle of repose, which a dry and loose material can have before it slides down the slope. The features on Mars are apparently at the edge of that angle, without any more cohesion as of water or humidity. I say apparently because nobody has yet been there and actually taken a look at either of the numbers.

The angle plays a role in shifting sand for example or wandering dunes.

It cannot be excluded that brines or, if you want, humidity, might play a role in the initiation of such a process.

On earth this may also be the case with e. g. tremors or some sort of ground motion and, before all, wind that blows things up one side of a dune and deposits it on the other side. But this is speculation and probably not applicable on Mars because Mars is a dry and barren place.

Source:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41561-017-0012-5

The problem with martian water is that it is retained in paleogeologies that have been preserved.

Climate forcing is readily apparent on Mars, because of its lower gravity than Earth these forcing mechanisms have more consequences. The heat from the sun is not great, but water once evaporated is free to liberate hydrogen in equatorial regions or sublimation in the polar regions due to the lack of a magnetic field. it is possible to create a magnetic field or around Mars using 1000s of satellites that convert solar power and also ground stations that reinforce the feild, this however would not be either comprehensive or stable . Thus water in the equatorial regions is inherently unstable over time, where as water buried in the polar regions and covered with CO2/water clathrates and dry ice will be more stable.

So the problem with water on mars is getting power from the places that have power to the places that have water so that water can be accessed. Already discussed in other threads is the problem with fusion reactor weight  and heat dissipation, both problems for getting a fusion reactor onto mars (although it could be delivered in pieces and assembled on mars)
Since you probably don't want people to be living in the cold polar regions, you need to deliver the water from the places that have water back to places that don't.

A second way to do this is to actually heat the poles using radiative heating, either from space (polar climate forcing) or by transferring power from the equator to the poles. Thus forcing the water and carbon dioxide off the poles and back into that atmosphere. This has the added benefit of warming the climate at both the poles and the equatorial regions. ONe still has to deal with solar winds. One could dig a tunnel from the poles to the equitorial regions that permit the flow of water back to the equator. In the process you might also stir up dormant life forms on Mars, which means that you will have xenobiology to worry about. But one could dig deep cisterns that keep the water in places that can then be used by humans, cisterns covered with plastic to prevent evaporation (of course the cisterns would be kept at 4'C because at martian pressure and room temperature water would boil).

The bottom line is that any colonization system on Mars would need a water plan, and invariably these plans require alot of energy to execute.