The KSP Caveman Challenge 1.3.x - 1.10.x [re-booted]

[Rakaydos]

Meanwhile, Tylo orbital departure stage

https://imgur.com/a/YzHAy9z

[Rakaydos]

And the heat shield/kerbin return stage.

https://imgur.com/a/4FLrXUR

Just need to figure out how to get 26 tons from LKO to Tylo capture, now.

[IncongruousGoat]

6 minutes ago, Rakaydos said:

Just need to figure out how to get 26 tons from LKO to Tylo capture, now.

Under normal circumstances, I would suggest lots and lots of gravity assists, but in this case that's not quite practical. Maybe @Muetdhiver, resident king of interplanetary caveman missions, can give some advice.

[Rakaydos]

On 6/27/2018 at 12:28 PM, Rakaydos said:

The lander already has 3 lightweight engines, so this is somethig that can be done by throwing standard fuel pods at the problem. (2.256 tons wet, .366 tons dry  each)

Assuming the top layer is filledd with 2 Y-connector fuel pods, another pair above them, and the Y connectors have another set of pods all hanging off them...

(Stage)2 tanks: 30.032 tons wet, 26.252 tons dry, 422.15 m/s

(Stage)3 tanks: 36.8 tons wet, 31.13 tons dry, 525.9 m/s

(stage)4 tanks: 45.824 tons wet, 38.264 tons dry, 564.8

(stage)4 tanks: 54.848 tons wet, 47.288 tons dry, 465.41

 

Still need another good KM/s for the direct approach.

Adding another layer to the top...

(Stage) 3 tanks: 61.616 tons wet, 55.946  tons dry, 331.34 m/s

(stage) 4 tanks: 70.64 tons wet, 63.08 tons dry, 388.51 m/s

...this is gong to be a pain in the butt to multidock. The triple dock was bad enough, but now multiple 5x docks?

Building out instead of up is another possibility, but floppyness awaits.

[Rakaydos]

Ok, I believe I know a way to pull this assembly off. It's going to be messy and complicated, but it should be POSSIBLE.

It's also going to take a minimum of 32 more launches (the above 20 launches still dont have enough DV, and I want a reserve available) so my updates may be slow.

[Rakaydos]

...Y-connector pods are a pain in the ass to dock.

[IncongruousGoat]

2 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

...Y-connector pods are a pain in the ass to dock.

May I recommend sending up a couple of mini RCS tugs? Worked like a charm when I was assembling my big Duna-Ike ship.

[Rakaydos]

1 hour ago, IncongruousGoat said:

May I recommend sending up a couple of mini RCS tugs? Worked like a charm when I was assembling my big Duna-Ike ship.

It's more an issue that the docking port I need to attach, and the docking port I'm using to push, do not line up.

I'm looking at putting 2 ant-tugs on it, though, and eating the cosign losses for balanced thrust in line with the docking port.

[Rakaydos]

First successful y connector docking. (album to come after the second docking)

5 more to go, plus repeated layer alignment redocks.

Edited July 11, 2018 by Rakaydos

[Rakaydos]

https://imgur.com/a/6Pwk47K

[Rakaydos]

After a bit of a hiatus, I'm back, with earth departure pods 3-8.

https://imgur.com/a/WY74lF0

[Rakaydos]

Next wave is 8 more standard pods.

https://imgur.com/a/7QQi6ZN

[Rakaydos]

This was the most aggravating section of the build, where slight inconsistancies in docking multipled out of control and high physics-warp forced-docks ruin any sence of aestetics the ship had to begin with.

 

(Yes, that exposed docking port says it's docked to the pod that isnt even close to aligned.)

Going to run a quick fuel-flow check tomorrow to see if this monstrosity even still works, then I can launch and dock the remaining 12 fuel pods. No fancy multidocks, just decoupler-mounted to the sides of each of the outboard pods.

https://imgur.com/a/nwYV12r

[JAFO]

My psychic powers are telling me that if you ever re-do this particular mission, you'll opt for lawn assembly instead of orbital. 

Kudos for sticking to this..  by now you must be still docking craft in your dreams.

Edited August 6, 2018 by JAFO

[Rakaydos]

9 hours ago, JAFO said:

My psychic powers are telling me that if you ever re-do this particular mission, you'll opt for lawn assembly instead of orbital. 

Kudos for sticking to this..  by now you must be still docking craft in your dreams.

Probably not, actually. Once you have the hang of blind rendevus, orbital docking is easier than lining up ground docking without crushing wheels or something. Being able to spam the same module simplifies things a tad, too.

[Rakaydos]

Dammit, none of my vertical layers are passing fuel, even with the decouplers set to enable crossfeed. Straight horizontal works, even through the decoupler for the kerbin return tank, but any multidock from multiple launches seems to be unable to pass fuel. (that is, I could dock 3 pods in a row fine, but trying to dock those three to another 3 fails fuel flow)

Wouldnt be TOO bad if there was fuel pumping (I lied- the tank structure I used would be a PITA to fuel pump) but this mission looks like a bust.

Edit: Ok, looks like there's still a tree logic for fuel flow, but multidocks make predicting that tree very hard. I may need to reassemble, and I'll probably be floppier, but what I want isnt impossibe.

Edit2: Opened all the crossfeed valves so any of the tanks can be accesed by any of the docked engines. Original plan was to use the decouplers to plan fuel flow, but with the crazytree, I'm going to have to use manual valve opening. Again, not impossible, but a pain in the ass.

Edit 3: one tank is being stubborn. It's clearly connected through a set of docking ports that claim they arnt docked. I'm able to clear away the rest of the pod with a decoupler, but I may have to lose a second pod to get rid of the faulty decoupler.

Edited August 6, 2018 by Rakaydos

[JAFO]

8 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

Probably not, actually. Once you have the hang of blind rendevus, orbital docking is easier than lining up ground docking without crushing wheels or something.

Fair enough.. interesting.. I've only ever tried orbital assembly myself, and figured doing it on the ground must be less of a hassle.. thanks for the perspective.

 

8 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

Dammit, none of my vertical layers are passing fuel, even with the decouplers set to enable crossfeed. Straight horizontal works, even through the decoupler for the kerbin return tank, but any multidock from multiple launches seems to be unable to pass fuel. (that is, I could dock 3 pods in a row fine, but trying to dock those three to another 3 fails fuel flow)

Wouldnt be TOO bad if there was fuel pumping (I lied- the tank structure I used would be a PITA to fuel pump) but this mission looks like a bust.

Edit: Ok, looks like there's still a tree logic for fuel flow, but multidocks make predicting that tree very hard. I may need to reassemble, and I'll probably be floppier, but what I want isnt impossibe.

Edit2: Opened all the crossfeed valves so any of the tanks can be accesed by any of the docked engines. Original plan was to use the decouplers to plan fuel flow, but with the crazytree, I'm going to have to use manual valve opening. Again, not impossible, but a pain in the ass.

Edit 3: one tank is being stubborn. It's clearly connected through a set of docking ports that claim they arnt docked. I'm able to clear away the rest of the pod with a decoupler, but I may have to lose a second pod to get rid of the faulty decoupler.

Bummer.. nothing is ever easy, eh?

Still, when a caveman attempts the "impossible", obstacles are inevitable, I suppose.

Good to see the mission can still proceed. It would have been pretty disappointing and annoying for you if you'd had to abandon things at this late stage.

[Rakaydos]

50 minutes ago, JAFO said:

Fair enough.. interesting.. I've only ever tried orbital assembly myself, and figured doing it on the ground must be less of a hassle.. thanks for the perspective.

 

Bummer.. nothing is ever easy, eh?

Still, when a caveman attempts the "impossible", obstacles are inevitable, I suppose.

Good to see the mission can still proceed. It would have been pretty disappointing and annoying for you if you'd had to abandon things at this late stage.

Orbital assembily has the advantage that you dont care if the rocket is floppy at 2g.

Worst case, I abort to a secondary mission objective. The Tylo lander alone could probably do Duna or... I'm sorry, I honestly cannot remember the name of the forgettable-memed planet- but the lander could probably go there with just the heat shield for return.

[Rakaydos]

Couldnt quite fit 3 pods per arm. Gonna have to make do.

Final assembily is adding the Departure Engines.

[Rakaydos]

A comedy of errors:https://imgur.com/a/aGxKQmx

[dvader]

I am really looking forward to seeing @Rakaydos build in action. I just finished my Jool ship for the final mission and I can't even imagine the difficulties involved when building something that big. Mine is tiny in comparison (since it has a very limited mission scope) but still suffers from self induced oscillations when the SAS is on. The unconventional looks are mostly due to the random space junk that the clever engineers decided to add at the very last minute. The trash is from failed launches and adds about 1100 Lq or 700 dV (assuming the whole thing doesn't shake apart when I start the engines).

 

Edited August 30, 2018 by dvader

[Rakaydos]

Blea... Finally got the last two engines docked, did a fuel flow check, and found another "jammed docking ports" that dont let fuel pass and cannot be undocked.

How do I use whack-a-kerbal? It would save me a launch to only kill one fuel pod instead of 2.

[JAFO]

9 hours ago, Rakaydos said:

Blea... Finally got the last two engines docked, did a fuel flow check, and found another "jammed docking ports" that dont let fuel pass and cannot be undocked.

How do I use whack-a-kerbal? It would save me a launch to only kill one fuel pod instead of 2.

What I normally use for fixing undockable or otherwise broken docking ports is KML, the persistence file editor.

But given the tangled monstrosity that is your ship, finding the right docking port might be a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack.

[Rakaydos]

12 hours ago, JAFO said:

What I normally use for fixing undockable or otherwise broken docking ports is KML, the persistence file editor.

But given the tangled monstrosity that is your ship, finding the right docking port might be a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Thanks to the Alert tab, the haystack was only 5 pages of  minor docking failures burying the major docking failure (and one or two other stranger issues I hadnt noticed yet). Thank you.

Next up is Stage planning and DV Sanity Check.

I've already spotted one problem that needs a mid-flight redock and a relaunch (it's only the "comedy of errors" center engine, though) to give the redocking part access to a probe core.

[Rakaydos]

Payload dead mass 25.52t (payload circularization stage: 1239.13 m/s)
Minimum DV target (Low kerbin to low tylo, minus payload circularization stage):  3950- 1239= 2711 m/s minimum

Phase 3 Propulsion: Spark on lander (ISP 320)
Tanks: 1 right angle.(.366 dry 2.256 wet)

27.776 Wet, 25.886 Dry, DV with no staging: 221.14 m/s
Dv to reach target: 2490 m/s

Phase 2 Propulsion: 1 Terrier (ISP 345)
Tanks: 1 right angle, 6 Y connectorTerrier tank, (.366 dry+.406x6 dry+ .820 dry, 2.256 wet+2.296x6 wet +2.820 wet)

46.628 Wet, 31.368 Dry, DV with no staging: 1341.18 m/s
DV to reach target: 1150 m/s

Phase 1 Propulsion: 3 Terriers (ISP 345)
Tanks: Terrier tank x2, Right anglex12 (.820x2 dry + .366x12 dry, 2.820x2 wet + 2.256x12 wet)

79.34 Wet, 52.66 Dry, DV with no staging: 1386.77
DV Reserve for bad maneuvering: 235 m/s

Phase 0 strap on tanks: 8 end mount (4.352 wet, .572 dry per pair)

Pair 1: 83.692 wet, 79.912 dry, DV: 156.37 m/s
DV Reserve: 390 m/s

Pair 2: 88.044 wet, 84.264 dry, DV: 148.31 m/s
DV reserve: 535 m/s

Pair 3: 92.396 wet, 88.616 dry, DV: 141.32 m/s
DV reserve: 675 m/s

Pair 4: 96.748 wet, 92.968 dry, DV: 134.84 m/s
DV reserve: 810 m/s

(Original design- requires additional launches)

Pair 5: 101.1 wet, 97.32 dry, DV: 128.92 m/s
DV reserve: 935 m/s

Pair 6: 105.452 wet, 101.672 dry, DV: 123.5 m/s
DV reserve: 1055 m/s