Andetch X Series Pilot Certification Test (Can you even SSTO?)

[Andetch]

Andetch Pilot Test (SSTO)

Hi, and thanks for looking at this challenge. This will be the most frustrating challenge you have tried!

In order to be certified as an Andetch X Rated Test Pilot, Kerbals must prove they are made from the right stuff, or die trying.... This is your chance to qualify as either Gold, Silver or Bronze standard Andetch pilot. Only when qualified will Andecth Kerman allow you to join the elite.

The Challenge

It's simple. In order to pass you must take the ADX-WMP SSTO for a flight. (WMP stands for Widow Maker Project) Download from Kerbal X here, and simply place the craft file into (KSP FOLDER) --> SAVES --> (SAVE NAME) --> Ships --> SPH.

No modifying the craft in anyway, it does fly. Feel free to mess with the fuel flow priorities though, it wont help.....

No revert allowed. If you need to abort the attempt, your Kerbal must have the reflexes and skill to save their own green skin. If your Kerbal is killed in the attempt, then they obviously were not what Andetch X Labs needed as a pilot. If they survive, then they get to try again. You can attempt a bail-out to save your pilot, by just jumping from the stricken craft and hoping for the best, WWI style!

If you can "safely" get your Kerbal to orbit, then you earn Bronze.

If you de-orbit, and land anywhere, you earn Silver - note, only the pilot need survive so a perfect landing is not needed. (No bail-out allowed)

If you de-orbit and land on the runway (or thereabouts) you earn Gold - note, the craft must survive the landing, however landing anywhere on the flat grasslands near the KSC still counts.

Perfect landing on the runway gets you Gold, plus high praise from the directors of Andetch.

See the below video for my proof of flight, and to get an idea of some of the quirky handling characteristics.

Submissions

Either a video showing the flight (preferred) or,

Screen-shots of

1. Runway
2. If you're not too busy flying, some pictures of ascent is always nice, like when you fire up the main engine. This is not needed for the submission to remain valid.
3. Orbit from map view, with PP, AP, and craft highlighted.
4. De-Orbit from map view, with PP, AP, and craft highlighted.
5. Landed, with KSC in view if close enough.

Also, please say how many Kerbal failed to make the grade, maybe a screen-shot of the KIA wall? Just for fun....

Gain ADX Certification for YOUR craft.

If you have got bored of sacrificing Kerbals in the ADX-WMP SSTO, but you still wanna be a part of the Andetch X-Labs, why not try and gain an ADX certificate for one of your creations? To qualify, the main criteria are that it works and the secondary criteria is that I can make it work without too much hassle.It is also about design qualities.

 

Edited December 10, 2017 by Andetch
Added Gain ADX Cert for your craft rules.

[Andetch]

Badges

The award badge is designed to fit into the corner of your current company logo, as you please. Font colour white or black.  See pictured.

 

 

 

[AeroGav]

I can't do it ! Eventually learned how to survive takeoff, but never figured out how to reach orbit before fuel runs out.    My first successful takeoff , was also my best orbital shot - 71km AP and 14km PE.     After that I tried another dozen times,  burning off the nose cone, flipping out at hypersonic velocity, or just lamely running out of fuel again, but all  of these subsequent attempts had a lower PE so were further from successful circularisation.

 

Well,  I wanted to say this from a position of strength, having passed the challenge ,  but I would say that a true test pilot can adapt to any aircraft they find themselves in,  even one with radically different characteristics.     

So  here's my own challenge airplane, the Voodoo Ray.     No twin Whiplash for you - one Panther is all you get.       1000kn of Vector ?  Now try with 120kn of NERV.   Gimbal , what's that?  Oxidizer ? That's for cleaning toilets or dyeing your hair blonde, right?

https://kerbalx.com/AeroGav/Voodoo-Ray

Action Group 1 - Toggle nuke

 

Bronze Certification     

Reach orbit,  land anywhere on Kerbin without killing the pilot.

Silver Certification

• More than 80% recovery value from landing fairly close to KSC and not damaging the airplane much  

or

• meet bronze award conditions with no use of SAS below 40km

or

• meet bronze award conditions without reading instructions

Gold Certification

• Land on the Runway with no damage

or

• destroy a KSC building on landing, without killing the pilot.

or

• land on the KSC peninsula from orbit, without restarting the jet engine (dead stick approach !).   

Edited December 6, 2017 by AeroGav

[Andetch]

Hehe nice!

Glad you tried, anyway...So firstly thank you for that!

The flipping issue is (I think) due to a) the heavy engine at the back, and b) the wings not producing significant lift until supersonic speeds, and if you nose up the wind flips you, and then it does not have enough control surfaces to get itself righted, although the vector does do well at saving your skin!!

It does seem to fly okay in descent.

Make sure you are getting the LF unlocked from the main tanks - IN FLIGHT (this is for reasons of balance and preserving the correct amount of LF to go with OX), and follow the climb angle from the video perfectly! 30 Degrees up to around the 10KM mark, then down to 20 degrees, following orbital prograde down to about 10 degrees, by then your AP should be 75 km, speed around 2,200m/s. If you are in the atmosphere climbing less than 10 degrees I think you will burn up. The non-vectored version of this can set both PP and AP inside the atmosphere, so not surprised you found out how to do it with this one! 

I have only managed to get this to SSTO with the perfect ascent, which is why I thought it would be a fun challenge!

From you video I see you are pulling up too violently, too early. It needs nearly all of those 70 metres of hight from runway to the sea to gain enough speed to lift. Also, when you did make it into the air, your initial climb was too shallow, and you fired the vector too slow, too low. Gotta be approximately 1,500 m/s (1,490m/s @ 22,500 metres in my video) before the vector starts up. Squeezing those extra m/s and height from the whiplashes makes all the difference! 

I will give your interesting looking bird a go now!

Once again, thank you for trying!

[Andetch]

I think I wanna change this challenge so that I also get to review other people's birds! I have had fun in the Voodoo Ray today... Any suggestions on how to build that element into the challenge are appreciated I fly yours, you fly mine!

@AeroGav Voodoo Ray Flight Test

So, X-Labs were sent this ship for evaluation..We looked at the TWR and thought "Tsh, this won't make the X grade.."  Our first flight was a bit of a disappointment; ending in failure to keep momentum increasing and we coasted over the AP in atmosphere.

Flight telemetry indicated that this was nothing to do with the Voodoo Ray, and more to do with poor piloting skills; however it also indicated that that there was enough fuel to fire the nukes up on the runway. Andetch Kerman, CEO, doesn't like that because the glowing green runway after is a pain to clean afterwards - but he wasn't in today so we gave that a shot.

The X-Labs team were admittedly starting to like this bird. Her sleek lines, and general look nice feel was growing on us, as well as the way it was so stable in flight. Flight stability is not something our test pilots are used to - and for some reason the ability to relax without the fear of a death-spin happening at any moment was proving popular among the pilots.

Using the initial flight data we planned a new trajectory into orbit.

We got it wrong.

There was enough leeway to correct it, and make SSTO.

This confused the pilot, and the ground team.

KSC Approach

Well, we also mis-timed the burn for this one. But being forgiven is a re-occurring theme with the Voodoo Ray.

We managed to slow down alot, but not enough? Maybe - as flight telemetry data after landing indicated that a KSC landing was possible, but only just.

We made a dead-stick approach into the Island Airfield just off KSC, with plenty of glide time to spare. We had to side-slip quite a lot to get the airspeed and height down, a tricky maneuverer at the best of times, but no issues with the Voodoo Ray.

The landing was hard, and we did damage the craft. Our designers feel that maybe something can be done to allow for harder landings, however with a craft this forgiving, maybe it was the pilot at fault?

X-Labs Certification

Congratulations! You may now sell this craft as carrying the ADX Certification for being one kick-ass ride!

 

Edited December 6, 2017 by Andetch

[AeroGav]

57 minutes ago, Andetch said:

The landing was hard, and we did damage the craft. Our designers feel that maybe something can be done to allow for harder landings, however with a craft this forgiving, maybe it was the pilot at fault?

I see you discovered the automatic roll correction system.   If the pilot lands one wing low,  excess mass is shed on the affected side to help restore balance.    BTW,  someone from the environmental protection agency called,  seemed quite agitated and was dressed in this very outlandish white "bee suit" suit-and-mask garb,  any ideas what that's about?   Can't be anything to do with the old airfield,   I just finished a headcount of the seal colony there and the numbers are up quite a bit.

When I fly the Ray I normally milk it up to 7km or so on jet power staying below 240 m/s, then level off, give it  a burst from el NERVs until properly supersonic (440 or so) then cancel nukes,  and climb up to 14km or so,  level off if not already at 750 m/s, then once 750 m/s is reached, stage the nukes on and concentrate on keeping the nose about 5 degrees above prograde.  Ignore any porpoising and don't freak out if it starts descending at any point, just maintain nose 5 degrees over prograde for optimal lift/drag and it'll accelerate to orbit while trending upward.           Then again. your method might use more fuel but gets to space faster so what do i know?

Also it seems the Ray's part count isn't too kind on your Mac !

Regarding the Widowmaker,  the nose cone catches a lot of air at high angles of attack and causes stability to go negative, i guess the fact CoM is so far aft gives it a long lever arm to torque the craft.    I'll have to watch the second half of your video again to see when you staged, i found if i try going much over 1350 at 17km the nose melts off and it pretty much doesn't want to accelerate any more in any case.

[Andetch]

2 minutes ago, AeroGav said:

Also it seems the Ray's part count isn't too kind on your Mac !

I run on a 4+ year old HP with an early i3, 8GB Ram, HDD, and the thing that makes KSP work is the fact it is an Ubuntu machine, not windows Also I have just installed a ton of mods, and it never liked playing smoothly with a recorder going, but give the old girl a break!

3 minutes ago, AeroGav said:

I see you discovered the automatic roll correction system.   If the pilot lands one wing low,  excess mass is shed on the affected side to help restore balance.   

BTW,  someone from the environmental protection agency called,  seemed quite agitated and was dressed in this very outlandish white "bee suit" suit-and-mask garb,  any ideas what that's about?   Can't be anything to do with the old airfield,   I just finished a headcount of the seal colony there and the numbers are up quite a bit.

That is a good system. We approve.

Andetch Industries has an environmental inquiries department located on 'stroid X2J-Alpha orbiting Dres. If the Kerbals in white coats would like to visit them, they will be more than happy to discuss any concerns.

5 minutes ago, AeroGav said:

When I fly the Ray I normally milk it up to 7km or so on jet power staying below 240 m/s, then level off, give it  a burst from el NERVs until properly supersonic (440 or so) then cancel nukes,  and climb up to 14km or so,  level off if not already at 750 m/s, then once 750 m/s is reached, stage the nukes on and concentrate on keeping the nose about 5 degrees above prograde.  Ignore any porpoising and don't freak out if it starts descending at any point, just maintain nose 5 degrees over prograde for optimal lift/drag and it'll accelerate to orbit while trending upward.           Then again. your method might use more fuel but gets to space faster so what do i know?

-------------------------------------

Regarding the Widowmaker,  the nose cone catches a lot of air at high angles of attack and causes stability to go negative, i guess the fact CoM is so far aft gives it a long lever arm to torque the craft.    I'll have to watch the second half of your video again to see when you staged, i found if i try going much over 1350 at 17km the nose melts off and it pretty much doesn't want to accelerate any more in any case.

  Yeah, I could feel I wasn't flying it as designed. It did seem like the design was called for milking the jets and doing a horizontal run. However, I did like the versatility in that my point up approach worked. First time I could feel that I took off too early, so never made the airspeed, but could have probably done a steep dive and re-climbed.

The Widowmaker is exactly that, something that widows Kerbals. It does it very effectively I think? I know from playing about with the basic airframe design you can make quite a stable, high speed craft from it. However, I choose not to. (Lies! The Lies, the ADX-WMP Hypersonic flier is quite stable, and on KerbalX). It is meant to test pilot ability to the limit. Any control input must be smooth and precise. If the nose comes as far off the centre of surface prograde as the ends of the lines off the circle (about 10 degrees from centre) it will start to flip. If I was programing an autopilot I would set it at 7 degrees max angle from prograde centre. The backwards abort landings are fun though.

I have also developed one that bins the wing part in favour of attachment pylons. That's quite fun, but needs about 400 m/s to lift - so that 35 metres spare becomes about 15! Not got it quite right, so not released yet!

17 minutes ago, AeroGav said:

 i found if i try going much over 1350 at 17km the nose melts off and it pretty much doesn't want to accelerate any more in any case.

Yeah, but a little bit higher and the nose doesn't melt. Also watch the throttle positioning in the ascent. The throttle can also help adjust the pitch angle with minimal control input.

[AeroGav]

13 minutes ago, Andetch said:

It is meant to test pilot ability to the limit. Any control input must be smooth and precise. If the nose comes as far off the centre of surface prograde as the ends of the lines off the circle (about 10 degrees from centre) it will start to flip. If I was programing an autopilot I would set it at 7 degrees max angle from prograde centre.

Well, it's not so different from the Ray in that it likes you to milk the air breathers and the Ray flies best if you don't let the nose get too far away from prograde, but for the reason that it hasn't got enough rocket thrust to overcome drag if you do, rather than it going into a flat spin if over-pitched !

[Andetch]

Tbh, I quite liked the Ray's pitchy-upi-ness coming down dead stick, made for a fantastic air brake high up!

[SG Aero]

Is there any chance I could get my DARK ARROW VTOL certified? Also, I’ll do this challenge later today. I’m a pretty good pilot.

[Andetch]

6 hours ago, ShadowGoat said:

Is there any chance I could get my DARK ARROW VTOL certified? Also, I’ll do this challenge later today. I’m a pretty good pilot.

Hi, welcome to the Widow Maker Project.

Andetch would welcome the chance to cetrify your DARK ARROW! Please post the KerbalX link if you have it

Good luck with the WMP I have checked, 100% heating should be okay, maybe @AeroGav is hardcore and playing on 100%+ heating! lol

[SG Aero]

By the way the Dark arrow is just a normal plane, not an ssto. It's just really maneuverable and fast and I'm quite proud of it. Would a Dropbox link be fine, as I don't really use kerbal x? You can see the craft in my forums "showcase" linked in my sig.

[Andetch]

Yeah, sure. I guess as long as I can fly it upside down at over the speed of sound within 50 metres of the sea or mountain peaks near ksc (something I love doing BTW - I've managed to take out a girder attached to the top of a plane on the mountain top before - girder piece goes bang, plane flies on!), and survive a high G inverse loop we will be fine! I guess  shall edit the thread to note that your submissions just need to be kick-ass in someway! WIll check it out and get back to you

RE: Dropbox, as long as I don't need an account... Is only a few kb for a craft file... isn't much so anything. Is it modded BTW? I saw the pictures it looks very well designed. Can't wait to crash it into the sea at 500m/s fly it.

How is the needing an extra few hundred metres of runway working out? Don't pull up too soon (less than 275 m/s is way too soon) or too sharply!

Edited December 10, 2017 by Andetch

[SG Aero]

Alright I'll get the Dropbox link up soon. Glad you think it looks well designed. Did you look at the other plane I have on my showcase? It's a small swing wing plane. Nothing special, I just like it. Also, that WMP is much harder to fly then I thought. Also it can totally do a high g inverse loop. The wings don't even break off. I literally haven't been able to break this thing due to g forces so good luck. And once again editing the post, it is 100% stock.

Edited December 10, 2017 by ShadowGoat

[Andetch]

 

11 minutes ago, ShadowGoat said:

Alright I'll get the Dropbox link up soon. Glad you think it looks well designed. Did you look at the other plane I have on my showcase? It's a small swing wing plane. Nothing special, I just like it. Also, that WMP is much harder to fly then I thought. Also it can totally do a high g inverse loop. The wings don't even break off. I literally haven't been able to break this thing due to g forces so good luck. And once again editing the post, it is 100% stock.

I look forward to it! Although I am leaving in 24 hours to go to southern philippines for xmas and new year, so my ability to post videos  (or anything at all) will be greatly reduced! No net in the jungle hahah!

The WMP is designed to be hard to fly. Everything about the SSTO run must be perfect. If you climb too shallow you will pick up too much heat, too steep and you wont have thrust.... If you unlock the LF in the main body you might not have enough left for the orbital burn, so don't unlock it until you fire the vector.....  It usually takes me 2 or three times to get it right, and I built it!

But about the wings not breaking off at high g...... There aren't really wings as such.... hence they don't break lol. You can actually get away with landing it in reverse for an aborted flight, but you gotta be so precise! Good luck pilot!

Also, kerbalX is a really good resource. You should check it out if you haven't already!

Oh one more thing, I should probably put up top - about saving your pilot.... Subsonic speeds over water you can survive just jumping out of the craft! That counts as saved.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Andetch

[SG Aero]

With the wings breaking off due to g forces I was talking about my plane. I can see where that was confusing. I was also talking about the high inverse loop on my plane. I'm now wondering how I wrote that mess.

wow. I really can't write today.

Edited December 10, 2017 by ShadowGoat

[Andetch]

Lol.... Yeah, your plane looks like it is capable of some nice flying!

I am interested to see how you did the VTOL. Not something I have really mastered yet, only STOL.

[SG Aero]

I'll give you a quick tutorial. It's actually not that difficult. You just need to put enough downwards facing thrust inline with the the center of mass, and then action group it separately from the horizontal engines. Personally I prefer the panther due to the TWR when you use afterburners.

[Andetch]

Yeah, I've got that far. it was more making it work, and look nice. I have a few concept frames (literally, frames like old USAF VTOL testers) that do it, and really helped my STOL designs, but I haven't yet got the VTOL designs working.

[Scarecrow]

Well I have tried the Andetch.  First flight resulted in a flip as I pitched up off the end of the runway.  Boy this thing is twitchy.  Subsequent flights have run out of oxidiser short of making orbit, my best attempt having a Pe of 20k.  A successful landing was made from this attempt though on the dark side of the planet out in the boondocks of some foreign continent.  Obviously my ascent profile is short of optimal. 

At the other end of the difficulty scale of getting a SSTO to orbit, you could try this one. 

Pilot notes and craft download can be found at https://kerbalx.com/Scarecrow88/LKO-Crew-X

Basically you take off, pitch up to 15-20 degrees and just follow the prograde marker, changing engine mode when you hear the air breathing cycle start to run out of oomph.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Scarecrow

[Andetch]

1 minute ago, Scarecrow said:

Well I have tried the Andtech.  First flight resulted in a flip as I pitched up off the end of the runway.  Boy this thing is twitchy.  Subsequent flights have run out of oxidiser short of making orbit, my best attempt having a Pe of 20k.  A successful landing was made from this attempt though on the dark side of the planet out in the boondocks of some foreign continent.  Obviously my ascent profile is short of optimal. 

At the other end of the difficulty scale of getting a SSTO to orbit, you could try this one. 

Pilot notes and craft download can be found at https://kerbalx.com/Scarecrow88/LKO-Crew-X

Basically you take off, pitch up to 15-20 degrees and just follow the prograde marker, changing engine mode when you hear the air breathing cycle start to run out of oomph.

Pilot's are being prepped now.

*takes ascent guidance notes and hides them so pilots can not read them.

[Scarecrow]

Oh, and if you want a VTOL, I have one inspired by the Harrier.  Level flight can be sensitive around the roll axis due to the anhedral wing layout, with the craft tending to over-roll.  Back in a previous version of KSP, the jet engine used for vertical lift had enough thrust to lift the craft at 2/3 throttle in non-afterburner mode, but a few versions back the engine parameters were changed and it now needs afterburner and full throttle to lift off.  This is also the reason why the craft doesn't have full fuel tanks - it would be too heavy if they were topped to the brim.

Again, pilot notes detailing action keys etc. can be found on the Kerbal X download page.

 

https://kerbalx.com/Scarecrow88/Kestrel

[Andetch]

LKO Crew X by @ScarecrowCertification Test

At first we liked the look of this craft, it looked like it had the potential to be a very fast, nippy bird.

Looks can be deceiving.

Once we had go over the handling aspects, we did start to enjoy our flying. An inverted pass of the KSC at 100 metres was possible. (Although, a short while later the laptop crashed, and I lost the video )

We did give the crew a flight manual, but maybe the navigator bill had it upside down? These things happen....

Just sit back, relax a gracefully coast up to around 25KM when we triggered the engine mode. Then more relaxing, a slight bit of piloting, and we had our sub-orbital velocity set. Around this point Bill remarked how the cabin could do with a window on the roof so he could enjoy the view.

This has got to be one of the easiest SSTO available, with plenty of juice in it for some fun flying before or after ascent.

Re-entry

Knowing we had plenty of juice left we decided to set a course that would allow us to do a supersonic pass down the valleys on approach to KSC. One of the ADX Team's favorite KSC approach paths. Unfortunately, this is where we discovered the structural issues the LKO Crew X has...

We set our de-orbit classic style. Just let it spin...

It was all going so well until the explosion - but this is truly where the LKO Crew X earns her certification.

Despite an unplanned disassembly at supersonic speeds, all crew and passenger modules were recovered safely. Pilot skill has to have played some part in this feat, however the design on the LKO Crew X was certainly the major factor in the crew survival. It just goes to show that old X-Labs saying "Wings are optional in flight" rings true!

Conclusions

While we do feel some minor structural and handling improvements could be made to the LKO Crew X (see advanced tweakables, autostrut. Not sure if the wings were strutted like that, if not, it will help. Also, possibly play with the control surface authorities) we do also feel it is a cool looking, kick-ass craft; not to mention the fact that Bill and Jeb owe it a debt of thanks.

We are pleased to issue an Andetch X-Labs flight certificate for the LKO Crew X by Scarecrow88!

Video Here! The landing after the disaster (30ish mins) is one I am proud of!

Edited December 10, 2017 by Andetch

[Laie]

If I may interrupt for a moment? I can only control my vessels through the MJ clicky-thingy (because reasons), so trying the original Widowmaker, for me, would be a game of tweaking controls surfaces and PID settings. Which isn't exactly in the spirit of this challenge. TL;DR: I can't really take part in this challenge.

However, some time ago I had a widowmaker of my own which I'd like to show you:

How about taking a flying wing to Duna? Now, the problem is that you can only go so fast on the jets, at least if you want to keep the wings. But if you under-utilize the airbreathers, making orbit will take too long altogether, and the cockpit will overheat. There's just a narrow margin between those two.

 

 

[Andetch]

49 minutes ago, Laie said:

If I may interrupt for a moment? I can only control my vessels through the MJ clicky-thingy (because reasons), so trying the original Widowmaker, for me, would be a game of tweaking controls surfaces and PID settings. Which isn't exactly in the spirit of this challenge. TL;DR: I can't really take part in this challenge.

However, some time ago I had a widowmaker of my own which I'd like to show you:

How about taking a flying wing to Duna? Now, the problem is that you can only go so fast on the jets, at least if you want to keep the wings. But if you under-utilize the airbreathers, making orbit will take too long altogether, and the cockpit will overheat. There's just a narrow margin between those two.

 

 

Firstly, I'd love to have a go. Especially if it goes to Duna. I understand the concept of not spending too much time in the "soup" below 8km, so we're on board!

Secondly, if you can fly the Widowmaker on mechjeb, I would still be impressed. I have never had much fun with mechjeb and planes..... Even with the ILS on Kerbinside I still usually make approaches by hand. Probably because I haven't read enough or played about enough to get them to work properly! haha