Andetch X Series Pilot Certification Test (Can you even SSTO?)

[Scarecrow]

Interesting mid-flight structural failure.  I didn't use autostrut during the build, but I tend not to fly at 3x in atmosphere, so maybe the physics at that speed are a little bit hinky.  Nice to see someone else flying one of my designs though.

[SG Aero]

Ok here is the SC Dark Arrow VTOL craft file.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/b7hmtensmlknwdr/SC Dark Arrow VTOL.craft?dl=0

Enjoy!

[Andetch]

1 hour ago, Scarecrow said:

Interesting mid-flight structural failure.  I didn't use autostrut during the build, but I tend not to fly at 3x in atmosphere, so maybe the physics at that speed are a little bit hinky.  Nice to see someone else flying one of my designs though.

Yeah, I do quite a lot of warp flying in the atmosphere, I get bored, lol! I'm sure if I hadn't of warped I would have made a perfect runway landing, at least to a definition of perfect that you may not have previously seen.... Still, I was impressed with the airframe's ability to cushion the fall and land somewhat safely after the, err.. incident.

I think the seeing other people do silly things in your creations aspect of this could be really fun!

Edited December 10, 2017 by Andetch

[HeroBrian_333]

Would you be willing to try a craft with BDA weapons on board (without removing them, that will mess up the balance)? very fast, three panthers, very maneuverable, but not an SSTO. Cannot handle non-atmospheric flight. However, it can perform a corkscrew just by using yaw with afterburners on. Also, you may have to ride the throttle for a bit. And it is a drone.

[Andetch]

I will fly anything! Just from tomorrow it will take me a while to give full reviews, however - I'm up for a backlog to keep me busy making videos! I will do my best to keep this active over the festive period!

Drop me a download link. Weapons are cool, I can review it vs some sam sites, drones etc and generally have fun wasting ammo!

Does it take high g? I've got one that takes up to around 90G before the wings fall off! I will absolutely try and destroy non ssto by G force I think. 

[HeroBrian_333]

K. If you will be testing against ground targets, I'll arm for ground assault.

[Andetch]

SC Dark Arrow by @ShadowGoat

Flight Certification Test

When asked by a representative of Shadow Goat if he had enjoyed his time in the SC Dark Arrow, ADX Test Pilot Dado Kerman had the following to say,

"Yes. Now no further questions until after I've had a brew."

This is a highly capable craft, and ADX engineers do feel a SSTO version is a very real possibility. It would just take some tinkering with the engine choices, switch out some tanks, and away we go! This is truly the sort of aircraft we love here at the ADX Labs, just watch the video to find out why!

About 10 minutes later a clerk delivered the following certificate.

2 hours ago, HeroBrian_333 said:

K. If you will be testing against ground targets, I'll arm for ground assault.

I will test to the limit. I have an arrangement of things to shoot at, some even shoot back!

If it can't kill ground targets with it's current armaments, well, we will find a way; we're very creative! Although, we at ADX Labs have always felt the true test of pilot skill and airframe build is to try taking off with a few hostile SAM units around the KSC and runway ends. Nothing gets a pilot flying to the limit better than a few seekers on their tail!

Edited December 11, 2017 by Andetch
Video Added

[HeroBrian_333]

1 hour ago, Andetch said:

I will test to the limit. I have an arrangement of things to shoot at, some even shoot back!

If it can't kill ground targets with it's current armaments, well, we will find a way; we're very creative! Although, we at ADX Labs have always felt the true test of pilot skill and airframe build is to try taking off with a few hostile SAM units around the KSC and runway ends. Nothing gets a pilot flying to the limit better than a few seekers on their tail!

It has STOL capability, so the GA J-24 EuroDart should be able to pop the SAM sites located at the end of the runway with a few laser-guided missiles. Also, it can fly fairly well with the AI with only one wing left.

Do you want to try and build a plane to shoot it down? See my Air Superiority Fighter Competition thread, it can kill the Bryntröll, Sanngrigor, Fighter 2, Fighter 3, Beserker drone, Be Gentle, Monstron, and Dronnbast.

[Scarecrow]

Having failed miserably to pilot the Andetch I thought I would build something that was a bit easier to fly to orbit, but taking it's design cues from the Andetch Widowmaker.

 

 

https://kerbalx.com/Scarecrow88/Javelin-SSTO

 

[Andetch]

7 hours ago, HeroBrian_333 said:

It has STOL capability, so the GA J-24 EuroDart should be able to pop the SAM sites located at the end of the runway with a few laser-guided missiles. Also, it can fly fairly well with the AI with only one wing left.

Do you want to try and build a plane to shoot it down? See my Air Superiority Fighter Competition thread, it can kill the Bryntröll, Sanngrigor, Fighter 2, Fighter 3, Beserker drone, Be Gentle, Monstron, and Dronnbast.

Yeah, well I downloaded BD because your thread inspired it! So we are gravy!

 

4 hours ago, Scarecrow said:

Having failed miserably to pilot the Andetch I thought I would build something that was a bit easier to fly to orbit, but taking it's design cues from the Andetch Widowmaker.

 

 

https://kerbalx.com/Scarecrow88/Javelin-SSTO

 

We love it!  Great landing!

Edited December 11, 2017 by Andetch

[AeroGav]

Anyone tried flying my "Voodoo Ray" beyond low orbit yet - it was designed as a mid tech crew trainer...

[SG Aero]

@Andetch You should make a showcase of certified craft. Also, thank you for the certification! I’ll be sure to put it in the most somewhat-safe building I have!

[HeroBrian_333]

Ok, so the air combat version of the J-24 EuroDart can be found here.

[SG Aero]

Great image ya got there

[Laie]

21 hours ago, Andetch said:

Firstly, I'd love to have a go. Especially if it goes to Duna. I understand the concept of not spending too much time in the "soup" below 8km, so we're on board!

Secondly, if you can fly the Widowmaker on mechjeb, I would still be impressed. I have never had much fun with mechjeb and planes..... Even with the ILS on Kerbinside I still usually make approaches by hand. Probably because I haven't read enough or played about enough to get them to work properly! haha

Well, here you go: Martian-3.craft

For a manual pilot it may prove to be flippy on takeoff: it takes a lot of input to get the nose up, I can only imagine that it's easy to loop right back into the runway. There may also be sideslip issues, yaw/roll coupling and whatnot, all of which do not concern me as I'm only ever flying a straight 90 degrees.

Craft was inspired by this wonderful cupcake video -- I can't do aerobatics, but when messing around with the shape I found that it should have enough dV to get to Duna and back. And of course, enough wing to actually glide on Duna. Landing in the wild proved tricky, though, and took many more tries than I care to admit.

However, what makes it a widowmaker is the low heat-resistance of wings and cockpit, together with the low nuclear TWR. Especially the cockpit is most insidious: you may think you made it, only to see it slowly overheat while coasting to apoapsis.

--

As for the original widowmaker, MJ has no major control issues. I had to tweak down most control surfaces to prevent oversteering, also the vector gimbal. With these taken care of, going to orbit was a piece of cake.

[AeroGav]

5 hours ago, Laie said:

Well, here you go: Martian-3.craft

For a manual pilot it may prove to be flippy on takeoff: it takes a lot of input to get the nose up, I can only imagine that it's easy to loop right back into the runway. There may also be sideslip issues, yaw/roll coupling and whatnot, all of which do not concern me as I'm only ever flying a straight 90 degrees.

Craft was inspired by this wonderful cupcake video -- I can't do aerobatics, but when messing around with the shape I found that it should have enough dV to get to Duna and back. And of course, enough wing to actually glide on Duna. Landing in the wild proved tricky, though, and took many more tries than I care to admit.

However, what makes it a widowmaker is the low heat-resistance of wings and cockpit, together with the low nuclear TWR. Especially the cockpit is most insidious: you may think you made it, only to see it slowly overheat while coasting to apoapsis.

--

As for the original widowmaker, MJ has no major control issues. I had to tweak down most control surfaces to prevent oversteering, also the vector gimbal. With these taken care of, going to orbit was a piece of cake.

I built something similar a while back,  but took it off KerbalX after 1.05 because the low heat tolerance of the wings.   

Also, the "Stretch"  version of my "Voodoo Ray" can go to Duna and make it back into orbit, though i added Vernier engines

Also, inspired by your craft I made a SSTO of the Vulture -

But anyway,  back to the Martian-3. 

Spoiler

 

  

With 2R 1N and no oxidizer, it has a huge surplus of air breathing power and a big deficit of rocket power.   I did try a zoom climb on my first attempt, but fell back into the atmosphere and melted the wings.    I normally avoid zoom climbs,  I think when you start zooming uphill on momentum,  you buy a few minutes out of the atmosphere, but prematurely bringing yourself to sub-orbital altitudes before you have the speed to match means your craft is not producing enough lift.   You develop a very high sink rate and end up dipping well below your "steady state" altitude for a given speed due to the downward momentum.    This is what overheated us first time.      Second attempt i tried to fly a more constant climb trajectory,  still ended up zooming and drooping a bit due to misjudgement, but we got away with things.

Yup, we zoomed too high here as well (though not as bad as first time) and i'm now pulling the nose way up to stop the sink rate getting dangerous.  This makes for a crappy lift/drag ratio due to high AoA.

A minute or so later, we've managed to arrest the descent, at the cost of a lot of drag (hardly any acceleration the past minute)

Temperature remains critical, so i can't ease off the stick.  Not that much drag up here though, however bad our L/D ratio and Cosine losses may be.

Made it !

 

BTW, my version of Martian-3 grew a bit

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xcddg7dfuusx9on/Martian-4.craft?dl=0

Has a full mining setup .   Action group 1 for nukes, action group 3 to open service bay and extend drill.  Action group 5 deploys radiator and starts drill.   2k delta V is enough to capture Duna yes?     A bit less prone to melting but really those fat-455 wings are a bad move, would rather a pair of big S instead.

Also got 3 vernier lift engines on the RCS system - press the translate up button just before touchdown, and you can get quite a low landing speed on duna.  5 landing gears for stability.

Edited December 11, 2017 by AeroGav

[HeroBrian_333]

9 hours ago, ShadowGoat said:

Great image ya got there

Well... I don't have an image hosting website account, so I'm stuck with it. Better than nothing.

45 minutes ago, AeroGav said:

 

That's amazing! I can't even build a decent long-range craft without it flipping out. Also, Where is the rocket fuel? I only see Big-S wing strakes, FAT swept wings, an engine precooler, and a Mk. 1 fuel tank. Oh, wait... Is that little rocket fuel tank all the oxidizer it has?!?!?!

[AeroGav]

46 minutes ago, AeroGav said:

BTW, my version of Martian-3 grew a bit

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xcddg7dfuusx9on/Martian-4.craft?dl=0

Has a full mining setup .   Action group 1 for nukes, action group 3 to open service bay and extend drill.  Action group 5 deploys radiator and starts drill.   2k delta V is enough to capture Duna yes?     A bit less prone to melting but really those fat-455 wings are a bad move, would rather a pair of big S instead.

Also got 3 vernier lift engines on the RCS system - press the translate up button just before touchdown, and you can get quite a low landing speed on duna.  5 landing gears for stability.

Unfortunately the small resource converter is bugged in 1.3.1,  overheats even more than designed - can't even keep up with a single small drill here.   So,  looks like i need to design a new SSTA based around 2.5m parts.   Took 159 days to fill up, about 90 seconds on timewarp.    BTW,  Laie,  this flying wing layout is very stable on the ground, landed first time.

7 minutes ago, HeroBrian_333 said:

That's amazing! I can't even build a decent long-range craft without it flipping out. Also, Where is the rocket fuel? I only see Big-S wing strakes, FAT swept wings, an engine precooler, and a Mk. 1 fuel tank. Oh, wait... Is that little rocket fuel tank all the oxidizer it has?!?!?!

....  doesn't use any oxidizer on the flight to orbit.      Two nukes and nice big wings, no need for oxidizer.    Uses about 20 units on the Verner engines when landing offworld.

[AeroGav]

12 minutes ago, HeroBrian_333 said:

Well... I don't have an image hosting website account, so I'm stuck with it. Better than nothing.

That's amazing! I can't even build a decent long-range craft without it flipping out. Also, Where is the rocket fuel? I only see Big-S wing strakes, FAT swept wings, an engine precooler, and a Mk. 1 fuel tank. Oh, wait... Is that little rocket fuel tank all the oxidizer it has?!?!?!

Try this then ! The Widowmaker challenge has several oxidizer-less craft.    This one doesn't actually bite much

https://kerbalx.com/AeroGav/Voodoo-Ray

Andtech reviewed it here - 

Unlike Antech,  I recommend reading the instructions before trying to fly it, oxidizer free spaceplanes fly a bit different to rocket fuel ones your're used to - 

Action Group 1 - Toggle nuke

Climb subsonic to about 7km, keeping speed below 250 m/s and not letting the nose rise more than 5 degrees above prograde.

Level off, accelerate to 440m/s before resuming climb.  Note that you can press (1) to trigger a burst from nukes to help you through the sound barrier.

Level off again at 13-15km, accelerate to 750m/s.   

At 750 m/s,  press space bar to activate nukes and raise nose to 5 degrees above prograde.  Maintain nose 5 degrees about prograde until above 70km.    Ignore any porpoising/dives or climbs after starting nukes - just maintain a nose angle 5 degrees above prograde for optimum lift/drag ratio.    

At 36km, Navball flips to Orbit mode.  Manually set it back to Surface, for best results.

The craft has a reasonable margin of fuel and thrust so will tolerate errors but flown optimally it can SSTO to Minmus.    Accurate control of pitch is essential for a good lift/drag ratio.  I prefer to fly this airplane with SAS off below 40km , it's been designed to be very stable.    Just use pitch trim to control climb angle (ALT S to nose up, ALT W to nose down) and you can make very fine adjustments.   

[Samwise Potato]

Challenge completed at Silver level, @Andetch

Getting Gold would just be a matter of spamming attempts until I get a feel for how much the re-entry flip-outs slow me down, but frankly this challenge wasn't much fun and I don't feel like fighting this terrible SSTO much more.

 

[Laie]

6 hours ago, AeroGav said:

With 2R 1N and no oxidizer, it has a huge surplus of air breathing power and a big deficit of rocket power. 

Yep, there's many ways to make it work better, perhaps the easiest would be to add just a small amount of rocket fuel.

6 hours ago, AeroGav said:

A bit less prone to melting but really those fat-455 wings are a bad move, would rather a pair of big S instead.

Swapping the airliner for spaceplane wings solves many problems. For starters, it allows you to make use of all that rapier power. The spaceplane wings hold less fuel, yet you still arrive in orbit with more dV left. Also, return becomes much easier. But of course, the flying-winginess will be gone completely.

I mean, it's not as if I set out with the explicit purpose of making a dangerous craft (who does that, anyway?) -- for me, the starting point was that wing, then trying to make it work despite the obvious problems.

Side note: the airliner wings work nicely on Duna, no risk of overheating even when coming in from interplanetary. On Kerbin, however... well, you better have some leftover fuel to capture under your own power.

[SG Aero]

@Samwise Potato it’s not supposed to be fun it’s supposed to be a challenge.

[Aghanim]

Is FAR and Pilot Assistant allowed?

 

Edited December 12, 2017 by Aghanim

[SG Aero]

I’m not the host, but I’m assuming no. Plus there plane is made for stock why would you want FAR?

[AeroGav]

1 hour ago, ShadowGoat said:

I’m not the host, but I’m assuming no. Plus there plane is made for stock why would you want FAR?

It deserves its own category imho.     There are multiple new ways to get yourself killed,  and practically guarantees "widowmaker" landing speeds.   My craft in this thread, the Voodoo Ray, has such a low stalling speed in stock aero, on return from space, you can just hold full nose up, throttle back till it starts losing altitude, and fly into the side of the VAB at 30 m/s.  This busts the nose, wings and engines off but the occupant is fine .  Well the occupants of the building are probably not fine so try to do it on a weekend.     On FAR the same airplane has a landing speed 4 or 5 times higher.

FAR produces realistic looking aircraft, and is more realistic overall, but it becomes a thorny issue of where do you stop.    With FAR,  drag is less below mach 5, and the overpowered stock jet engines can make the game unbalanced.   But if you combine FAR with real scale solar system (RSS),   you're better off with stock aero.    Above mach 5 FAR lift/drag ratios become worse than stock and will soon dip below 1, making a spaceplane impossible.     FAR does not model compression lift, which at least offers the prospect (in real world, with enough research) of getting bearable efficiency from hypersonic lift.     Then you get into the issue of the game not allowing two -stage to orbit with stage recovery, which seems one way of making reusable space planes less daunting . etc.