Asymmetric Aircraft

[DerekL1963]

On 1/2/2018 at 3:16 AM, Hotel26 said:

The Camel had a rotary engine that produced a gyroscopic turn effect (right turn, IIRC) that gave the airpplane, in skilled hands, an advantage over conventional enemy aircraft

Left turn actually, that's why aircraft carrier islands are to starboard.

[DDE]

7 minutes ago, DerekL1963 said:

Left turn actually, that's why aircraft carrier islands are to starboard.

That might depend. After all, French and Russian helicopters have an opposite rotor direction.

[DerekL1963]

10 minutes ago, DDE said:

That might depend. After all, French and Russian helicopters have an opposite rotor direction.

Neither the French nor the Russians developed the Camel or invented the aircraft carrier.  And, FWIW, the Béarn followed convention - her island was to starboard.  Ditto for every Soviet carrier or pseudo carrier.

Edited January 5, 2018 by DerekL1963

[Zeiss Ikon]

Just confirmed from photographs of original engines -- the rotary engines of WWI (the Sopwith Camel and Triplane had them, and so did the Fokker Dr. I triplane -- along with a few other models) were right rotating, meaning pulling up would give a strong precession turn to the left.  This wasn't the reason for the starboard island on carriers, though -- if a rotary engine aircraft ever flew from a carrier, it was an experiment.  Carriers effectively didn't exist in WWI; the technology of landing on a ship wasn't invented until near the end of the war, too late to deploy anything before the Armistice.  Those earliest experimental carriers didn't have real islands anyway; they were just cut-down and decked-over cargo ships.

The position of carrier islands was established in the run-up to WWII, when much heavier, more powerful aircraft were launching from the deck.  For those craft, P-factor (an artifact of angle of attack interacting with the propeller's rotation) was the big factor in takeoff turn, rather than gyroscopic effects, and it didn't matter much; from a carrier steaming to windward, even a fully loaded attack craft could get into the air using only the forward half of the deck, without having to pass the island.  Accidents on landing were just as likely to threaten a starboard island as a port one.  The island was put on the starboard side because ships dock on the port side (that's why it's called port) and loading was greatly simplified if the island wasn't in the way -- you could just lower the elevators and move aircraft, ordnance, and so forth directly from the pier into the hangar decks.

[Hotel26]

4 hours ago, DerekL1963 said:

Left turn actually, that's why aircraft carrier islands are to starboard.

Thanks for the clarification.

Left turn caused the nose to rise (and a lot of stall impacts with the ground) and right turn caused the nose to drop.

Once mastered, the Camel's handling was characterized as "razor-sharp" by those who loved its personality (and hated by those who couldn't).

Thus with sufficient momentum, a "flick" left turn could be performed as a kind of Immelman turn enabling an attacker to get back into the "six" of the opponent.

Edited January 6, 2018 by Hotel26

[magnemoe]

2 hours ago, Zeiss Ikon said:

Just confirmed from photographs of original engines -- the rotary engines of WWI (the Sopwith Camel and Triplane had them, and so did the Fokker Dr. I triplane -- along with a few other models) were right rotating, meaning pulling up would give a strong precession turn to the left.  This wasn't the reason for the starboard island on carriers, though -- if a rotary engine aircraft ever flew from a carrier, it was an experiment.  Carriers effectively didn't exist in WWI; the technology of landing on a ship wasn't invented until near the end of the war, too late to deploy anything before the Armistice.  Those earliest experimental carriers didn't have real islands anyway; they were just cut-down and decked-over cargo ships.

The position of carrier islands was established in the run-up to WWII, when much heavier, more powerful aircraft were launching from the deck.  For those craft, P-factor (an artifact of angle of attack interacting with the propeller's rotation) was the big factor in takeoff turn, rather than gyroscopic effects, and it didn't matter much; from a carrier steaming to windward, even a fully loaded attack craft could get into the air using only the forward half of the deck, without having to pass the island.  Accidents on landing were just as likely to threaten a starboard island as a port one.  The island was put on the starboard side because ships dock on the port side (that's why it's called port) and loading was greatly simplified if the island wasn't in the way -- you could just lower the elevators and move aircraft, ordnance, and so forth directly from the pier into the hangar decks.

Never thought of the Port thing however its true with an few exceptions as in fast in and out passenger boats. 
Using the elevators for loading also makes lots of sense, even more important with modern carriers with tilted landing deck. 

[DerekL1963]

6 hours ago, Zeiss Ikon said:

Those earliest experimental carriers didn't have real islands anyway; they were just cut-down and decked-over cargo ships.

You should look at the first operational carriers of the 1920's then.
 

6 hours ago, Zeiss Ikon said:

The position of carrier islands was established in the run-up to WWII, when much heavier, more powerful aircraft were launching from the deck.

The era of "cut down merchant ships" was precisely two carriers, The Royal Navy's Argus and the USN's Langley.  (The only other flat-deck/no island carrier of the era was HMS Furious, which wouldn't come along until much later.)

The Eagle (tested with a starboard island in 1920, entered full service in 1924) was the UK's 2nd operational carrier, the Béarn (1927) was the French's first carrier, and Lexington (1927) was the USN's second carrier - and all had starboard islands.

 

6 hours ago, Zeiss Ikon said:

The island was put on the starboard side because ships dock on the port side (that's why it's called port)

That's a considerable misunderstanding of the situation.  (To put very mildly.)  Ships docked with their left (or port) side to shore (or pier or quay) in the era when the steering oar (the steorbord) was on the right (or starboard) side of the vessel.  That era was essentially over for large oceangoing vessels by the mid-late 1500's when the tiller replaced the steering oar.  (Tillers eventually evolved into rudders as we know them today.)  Tillers are on the centerline, and the ship may dock whichever way it finds convenient without risk of damage to the steering gear.  With the era of ships being required to dock to port being the better part of half a millenium in the past, it played no role in the design of the carrier.

3 hours ago, magnemoe said:

The island was put on the starboard side because ships dock on the port side (that's why it's called port) and loading was greatly simplified if the island wasn't in the way -- you could just lower the elevators and move aircraft, ordnance, and so forth directly from the pier into the hangar decks.

0.o  The earliest carriers had centerline elevators!  (If they had elevators at all.)  The first deck edge elevator was installed in USS Wasp (1936) - a decade after starboard islands became standard.

Edited January 6, 2018 by DerekL1963

[PB666]

hmmm,  16th century, oars, pirates, portly women  "thar be wee men a green"

Yep, this is kerbal space program.

[Green Baron]

Not exactly asymmetry, rather mirroring: The two Festo balloons :-)

 

[PB666]

2 hours ago, Green Baron said:

Not exactly asymmetry, rather mirroring: The two Festo balloons :-)

 

I  think the correct symmetry is called * backwards.