[Stock 0.16] The Eve Project =Guard13007 Industries=

[Guard13007]

The Eve Project

=Guard13007 Industries=

So, we all know of these new planets coming with the next update, right? Plenty of new things to shoot rockets at.

Well, I've decided on planning for one in particular. Eve.

And even better, we're going to make a design that is easy to fly, and allows you to return to Kerbin after the trip.

This is what we've got to work with so far:

Project Status:

Lifting body: DESIGN NEEDED: There have been many designs, but accidental exploitation of fuel bugs has made this stage uncertain. Right now we have this design (thanks r_rolo1!), but it seems to be exploiting a fuel glitch (unintentionally) so we have to start yet again.

Orbital transfer: DESIGN NEEDED: Same issues as with the first stage. The X6 does pretty dang good on going out to space actually, but needs further testing. I only took it for a joyride once, and burned straight up instead of doing the sensible thing.

De-orbit/Landing burn: DESIGN NEEDED: Same issues as with the first stage.

Lander/Return lifting body: PROTOTYPES IN DEVELOPMENT: The X3 and X5 have performed well in my tests, but probably don't fit the bill. what-the claims this design will return to orbit from Eve.

Return orbital transfer: DESIGN NEEDED: So far, the idea is to have a 3-Kerbal capsule launch with 2 Kerbals aboard and rendezvous with the lander, then bring all crew back. It should be easy to design a sister-ship once the first one has been designed.

Return de-orbit/Landing: UNKNOWN: This step should be fairly simple, only one craft needs to be return-capable.

Prototype Rockets:

(Listed in order of most successful tests.)

• The Eve 1, designed by r_rolo1 (More info!) (Detailed flight instructions!) - So far this design seems to be closest to what will be needed in the end, but due to accidental fuel glitch use, we are not sure.
  
• The X5, designed by Guard13007 - A small lander that works as expected in tests (not sure how well it will work with Eve's higher gravity and drag yet though). Probably a good step, but not final, not at all.
  
• The Crossbow, designed by ltpeanuts - It can take off, orbit, land, take off and orbit again. Has some unique design aspects to learn from and could be the upper stages of the final design (or close), but as with everything on here, not finished. (I question the fuel use bug on this one, the designer has stated he used as low as 5% throttle during flight...)
  
• The X6, designed by Guard13007 - An untested vehicle launch design for the X5. Probably don't work.
  
• The X2, designed by Guard13007 - A prototype launch vehicle with the X1 on top. Needs testing to see how far you can get with it. (My computer is not powerful enough to properly test this design.)
  
• The X3, designed by Guard13007 - An improved X1 with more fuel and a better landing system. Currently can land on Kerbin and return to orbit.
  
• The X1, designed by Guard13007 - A prototype lander and return rocket (at least return to orbit), can easily get into low Kerbin orbit with two fuel tanks left, and has a parachute, will return from orbit safely.
  

Downloads:

(Note that downloads to individual designs are linked to by the post about that design as well.)

• All of my designs (I don't include others' designs because it makes it harder to manage keeping up-to-date downloads): http://www./?kuhdmm56fzfup9z
  
• The Eve 1: http://www./?9tung9ea2dbcdut (See this thread for latest design info.) There is already an Eve 1 a so go to the thread for downloads please.
  
• The X5: http://www./?1tdi9151byxj3it
  
• The Crossbow: http://www./?cjj8jz34kmklbiy (design by ltpeanuts, may be out-of-date)
  
• The X6: http://www./?kxdcd65set3jpz6
  
• The X2: http://www./?c8kkxpfvhct71t1
  
• The X3: http://www./?jzs8o0u21phcgrn
  
• The X1: http://www./?mcmc8jcbj9kuub7
  

Eve Information/Testing Info

• Eve's atmosphere is supposedly about 500% as thick as Kerbin's, and has 110% gravity of Kerbin (but also, Nova says surace gravity of 1.7g..so this is wrong?). Everything subject to change...
  
• NovaSilisko provided us with information (subject to change/not finalized) about Eve's orbit: http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/forum/showthread.php/17567-Stock-0-16-The-Eve-Project-Guard13007-Industries?p=244849&viewfull=1#post244849
  
• what-the provided a modified engine to simulate gravitational and atmospheric (partially) difference between Eve and Kerbin: http://kerbalspaceprogram.com/forum/showthread.php/17567-Stock-0-16-The-Eve-Project-Guard13007-Industries?p=245146&viewfull=1#post245146
  

Edited August 28, 2012 by Guard13007

[Guard13007]

The X1

This is the first prototype, a rocket designed to touchdown on and return from another planet. I figure that a rocket that can get into low Kerbin orbit with two fuel tanks left can theoretically finish a landing and return to orbit from a small planet (even if that planet has a thicker atmosphere, oops, I forgot about that when choosing Eve as a destination).

The idea is to have a companion vessel that does not land, and instead carries plenty of fuel and an extra seat to return the pilot of the lander. The X1 can meet with this vessel in orbit above Eve, and is discarded.

Takeoff instructions for test flights on Kerbin:

1. Full throttle and SAS on.

2. Gravity turn at 500 m/s.

3. When Apoapsis reaches 80 km, cut throttle.

4. At 10 seconds from Apoapsis, burn again, finish orbital maneuvers as you want.

Download it from here: http://www./?mcmc8jcbj9kuub7

Edited August 20, 2012 by Guard13007

[Guard13007]

The X2

Picture removed, something glitched and it ended up being the wrong picture.

Also, it turns out there is no picture. I'll have to get one. If I remember.

The X2, as I have said many times, probably won't work out anyhow.

A prototype design to test capabilities of the current tanks and engines. If the design actually works, here's what needs to happen (and no, I don't expect this design to actually work and be the final design, that'd be far too easy):

Stage 3-4: Get into Kerbin orbit.

Stage 4-5: Get into orbit of Kerbol, to Eve, and de-orbit.

Stage 5: Get close to the surface (possibly parachutes are needed), detach just before touchdown.

Stage 6-7: Get into orbit (stages 6-8 are the X1).

Stage 8 is currently a parachute, this may be removed if a companion vessel is used for return trips.

Unfortunately, because my computer isn't powerful enough, I cannot test the X2 effectively. It lags so much that my attempts to make minor corrections are over-corrections and I can't recover. TEST PILOTS NEEDED.

Download it from here: http://www./?c8kkxpfvhct71t1

Edited August 22, 2012 by Guard13007

[what-the]

Rockets look good but do they account for Eve's higher gravity (I think it was 110% of Kerbin's) and the denser atmosphere (500% of Kerbin's)? Add up all the mass and drag of the eve orbitor and add dead weight to account for differences.

This rocket is just capable of orbiting Kerbin with added dead weight to simulate Eve's gravity and drag.

[Guard13007]

Rockets look good but do they account for Eve's higher gravity (I think it was 110% of Kerbin's) and the denser atmosphere (500% of Kerbin's)? Add up all the mass and drag of the eve orbitor and add dead weight to account for differences.

I knew it had a denser atmosphere, but I thought it was something like 200-300% and I thought it had a lower gravity (for some reason I was thinking of it like Mars /derp moment). And now that I hear it's actually overall worse than getting off Kerbin, well, time to scale-up! But still, I either need to design smaller but still capable rockets and/or get others who can test the larger designs.

Something else I would like to point out, your example requires skill and a non-laggy computer to fly, I have a little skill (not much) but a somewhat laggy computer, and I also want my designs to just be easy-to-fly no matter, and more fuel makes it easier (because you can make more mistakes), so I will probably continue to make over-sized rockets for what is actually required.

Sorry if my wording is bad/I am saying something stupid, it is 1 am and I need sleep.

[Guard13007]

The X3

An improved X1 re-designed for testing the landing and return to orbit stages. It uses 18 parachutes and 1/3 throttle (ending up using half a tank of fuel) to make a safe touchdown on Kerbin. Once it has landed, you can takeoff into a circular 100 km orbit with 3 tanks of fuel left (that's 2 big tanks and 1 half-size tank).

The first three stages (SRBs, outer tanks, inner tank) are to get the test vehicle into the air to for landing. The way I have tested this design is to bring it up to 5 km, drop the 2nd/3rd stage, and burn a little to get above the discarded parts. Now what I think for an Eve landing, we don't need as many parachutes or as much fuel (I'm hoping the very thick atmosphere helps us out with a nice landing).

Landing on Kerbin with the X3 lander stage:

1. Deploy chutes as soon as possible. Deploy landing gear.

2. At 2 km up, get throttle up to 1/3 and hold it there. (Be exact! I don't know the effects of being a little off.)

3. At touchdown, cut engines.

After this landing has been carried out, the remaining fuel can takeoff and get into a 100 km circular orbit, with enough fuel to then completely stop and fall straight down, with a small tank left even after that. I just love this, I have to repeat it. xD

Takeoff instructions:

1. Full throttle and SAS on.

2. Gravity turn at 500 m/s.

3. Cut engines when Apoapsis is at 100 km.

4. At 20 seconds from Apoapsis, full throttle.

5. And finish your orbit to your own judgement.

Download from here: http://www./?jzs8o0u21phcgrn

[Giggleplex777]

If you don't care about returning to kerbin, you can make a much smaller rocket than the ones you have here. All you need to do is make a normal sized mun lander and add parachutes to it. The launch vehicle probably only needs an extra fuel tank or two reach escape velocity for an eve transfer orbit using the lander to do some adjustments since you can save some fuel with parachutes. After that things should be pretty straight forward.

[Guard13007]

If you don't care about returning to kerbin, you can make a much smaller rocket than the ones you have here. All you need to do is make a normal sized mun lander and add parachutes to it. The launch vehicle probably only needs an extra fuel tank or two reach escape velocity for an eve transfer orbit using the lander to do some adjustments since you can save some fuel with parachutes. After that things should be pretty straight forward.

If you'd bothered to read, you would've noticed the whole point of this endeavor is to design a rocket that can get you there and back. "And back."

I am aware than I am designing things bigger than they need to be, and am trying to scale-back a bit, but the whole point, like I said, is to make it back when we're done.

[r_rolo1]

Your X3 would probably win if you used the big parachutes on top of the lateral tanks ...

And may I suggest aerospikes instead of the LVs ? They have by far the best thrust/weight ratio and they ( still (?) ) do not have reduced performance in thick atmospheres, making them the natural engines for a lander stage in a thick atmosphere planet , like Kerbin nowadays and also Eve in .17

[Giggleplex777]

Sorry, I didn't read the whole thing.

[Giggleplex777]

I don't think the X3 needs that many parachutes, because of the denser atmosphere, the parachutes should only need to slow the rocket down to ~35 m/s on Kerbin.

[ltpeanuts]

What if you did 2 ships? As in launch a 1 person Lander into Eve orbit and at the same time launch an orbiter with a 3 person capsule into Eve orbit. Use the lander for making the one small step and such, while having just enough fuel to break atmo on the way out. Then move the orbiter or lander to meet the other, eva the lander pilot into the obiter and fly home. This way you'd have 2 smaller ships as opposed to one huge one.

[Guard13007]

Your X3 would probably win if you used the big parachutes on top of the lateral tanks ...

And may I suggest aerospikes instead of the LVs ? They have by far the best thrust/weight ratio and they ( still (?) ) do not have reduced performance in thick atmospheres, making them the natural engines for a lander stage in a thick atmosphere planet , like Kerbin nowadays and also Eve in .17

The high number of small parachutes are for testing on Kerbin, with a small amount of thrust, it lands fine. On Eve, I don't think it will need the thrust (or not as much), and I can probably ditch 6 or 12 chutes, although I'll admit I didn't consider the larger chutes, I'll have to experiment with them as well.

As for using aerospike engines, I will experiment with them in 0.17 if they aren't nerfed, but I'm afraid they will be changed in some manner that will make them unsuitable for this. (I should also try using them for launch stages.)

Sorry, I didn't read the whole thing.

It's fine, nobody really does (except me xD (most of the time)). Sorry if I sounded a bit harsh.

I don't think the X3 needs that many parachutes, because of the denser atmosphere, the parachutes should only need to slow the rocket down to ~35 m/s on Kerbin.

I know it won't need that many parachutes for use on Eve, but for during test flights, they are there for use on Kerbin. Right now, 6 chutes will slow it to almost (I don't remember the exact amount) the exact speed you just specified.

How did you calculate this speed as the required slowing on Kerbin for it to work on Eve? I am trying to use more math in my designs now (starting with the X4 and X5, which are smaller but still get into orbit and land safely) and need help.

So far I can calculate weight, thrust-to-weight ratios for both Kerbin and Eve (assuming Eve's gravity is 110% of Kerbin's, which I was told by what-the earlier in this thread), and base drag levels for Kerbin and Eve (also based on info from what-the that Eve's atmosphere is 500% that of Kerbin's).

What I need to learn how to calculate is dV (for both rocket designs and orbital maneuvers), burn times (a little bit maybe, I'm more curious than I need-to-know), and exact figures for how atmosphere affects rockets (I don't understand how to calculate and adjust designs to get out of atmo more efficiently).

What if you did 2 ships? As in launch a 1 person Lander into Eve orbit and at the same time launch an orbiter with a 3 person capsule into Eve orbit. Use the lander for making the one small step and such, while having just enough fuel to break atmo on the way out. Then move the orbiter or lander to meet the other, eva the lander pilot into the obiter and fly home. This way you'd have 2 smaller ships as opposed to one huge one.

Again, no one reads it all. xD If you'd look at Project Status, it says the current plan is to have two vehicles launch, as you out-lined (well, one minor difference, the lander gets into orbit instead of just out of atmo, to make rendezvous easier (remember, one of the goals of this project is to make a design that is easy to fly)).

[ltpeanuts]

I misread it Anyway I'm working on some designs for a lander stage. I'll post pics after the test flight is done.

EDIT: So the test flight is done and without further ado here is the Crossbow. It can take off, land and take off again with plenty of fuel to spare if flown economically. Images files are attached because I don't know how to embed them. Give them it go.

Downlaod: http://www./?cjj8jz34kmklbiy

Edited August 23, 2012 by ltpeanuts

[Guard13007]

I misread it Anyway I'm working on some designs for a lander stage. I'll post pics after the test flight is done.

EDIT: So the test flight is done and without further ado here is the Crossbow. It can take off, land and take off again with plenty of fuel to spare if flown economically. Images files are attached because I don't know how to embed them. Give them it go.

Downlaod: http://www./?cjj8jz34kmklbiy

That looks very similar but better than the X4-X6 which I've been working on but haven't posted because I've been so busy.

By "flown economically" I hope you mean by being good at flying to orbit, rather than by throttle control. We don't want to use the fuel glitch here, so I just want to clarify. Also, what are your instructions for an economic flight path?

I'll give your design a try when I have time (right now I need to go to bed, and I have class and homework tomorrow (yay college)). After testing it myself, (if you don't mind) I'll add it to the list on the first post with instructions and whatnot and of course give credit where credit is due!

[NovaSilisko]

I'll help you guys out a little bit, here are the latest stats on Eve:

(may change, they've been changed up quite a bit so far)

Radius: 700km

Surface gravity: 1.7g

Atmosphere density: 5x kerbin

Rotation period: 22.5 hours

Semimajor axis: 7440000km

Eccentricity: 0.03

Inclination: 0.025

[what-the]

Eve looks like quite the challenge. Maybe we need to look into space-planes to take advantage of the potential lift?

[NovaSilisko]

Heh, when we have the time to add fog and clouds it'll get a lot tougher.

[what-the]

Flying challenges are great. I have lots of simulated experience flying planes through crazy near impossible storms landing only with GPS and the ground proximity warning but this game might only have altitude .

I'll try to make a space-plane to get into orbit simulating the current Eve.

Edit: Okay. Drag and lift is 2.5 times that of Kerbins. So I'll create a plane that can get into orbit then add 1.7 x weight and 2.5 x lift and drag.

Edited August 23, 2012 by what-the

[Guard13007]

Nova? xD Awesome! Thanks for the help! ^^

Radius: 700km

Surface gravity: 1.7g

Atmosphere density: 5x kerbin

Rotation period: 22.5 hours

Semimajor axis: 7440000km

Eccentricity: 0.03

Inclination: 0.025

Radius, what is that relative to Kerbin's radius (I guess I'm asking, what's Kerbin's radius)?

1.7g as in 1.7 times Kerbin's gravity? Kerbin's gravity is 9.8 meters per second per second (and did I say that right?) right? I was operating on the assumption of 110% Kerbin's gravity right now, so ... dammit ...

Semimajor axis pretty much = its orbital altitude right? (I'm asking: It's on a circular orbit, right?)

I forgot what eccentricity and inclination are but scratch everything I was about to say, I'll go look it up now.

@ what-the : How are you figuring out what changes to make to test for extra atmosphere/gravity? I get the simple 1.7g (or I think I do) and the 5x atmo, but how did you get to this meaning you needed to add 2.5x weight for your simulation/test flights?

[r_rolo1]

I'll help you guys out a little bit, here are the latest stats on Eve:

(may change, they've been changed up quite a bit so far)

Radius: 700km

Surface gravity: 1.7g

Atmosphere density: 5x kerbin

Rotation period: 22.5 hours

Semimajor axis: 7440000km

Eccentricity: 0.03

Inclination: 0.025

Not wanting to look ungrateful ... but the atmospheric density profile of Eve is equal to Kerbin or atleast similar ? As aerobraking will be a primary slowdown manouver there it would be nice to know ...

[what-the]

Nova? xD Awesome! Thanks for the help! ^^

Radius, what is that relative to Kerbin's radius (I guess I'm asking, what's Kerbin's radius)?

1.7g as in 1.7 times Kerbin's gravity? Kerbin's gravity is 9.8 meters per second per second (and did I say that right?) right? I was operating on the assumption of 110% Kerbin's gravity right now, so ... dammit ...

Semimajor axis pretty much = its orbital altitude right? (I'm asking: It's on a circular orbit, right?)

I forgot what eccentricity and inclination are but scratch everything I was about to say, I'll go look it up now.

@ what-the : How are you figuring out what changes to make to test for extra atmosphere/gravity? I get the simple 1.7g (or I think I do) and the 5x atmo, but how did you get to this meaning you needed to add 2.5x weight for your simulation/test flights?

I said 1.7x weight. My mistake on lift and drag which is 5 times greater (used the lift equation and halved Eves twice.

[Guard13007]

The X5

(Yes, I know there is no X4. It was a proto-prototype.)

So this is an improved lander design, it's smaller and a bit more efficient, still gets us in orbit, and you can be a little more wasteful with the fuel because the jet fuel tanks used on landing can be used to get off the ground as you leave (as long as you do a good landing).

Landing instructions:

1. Stage 3 is the parachutes, activate them as soon as you can.

2. Stage 2 activates the outer engines using the jet fuel tanks. Activate them but with no throttle.

3. At 2 km, increase throttle to 1/3.

4. At 200 meters, increase throttle by two or three ticks (two is doable, three is safer but uses more fuel).

5. And cut engines on touchdown.

Takeoff/return to orbit instructions:

1. Turn SAS on (turn it off and back on if you just landed).

2. Full throttle. Either ditch the jet tanks before launch or use them and discard them as you're going up.

3. Stage as needed. When you get to 500 m/s, turn towards 90.

4. When Apoapsis reaches 75 km, cut throttle.

4. At 10 seconds from Apoapsis, burn again, finish orbital maneuvers as you want.

Download it from here: http://www./?1tdi9151byxj3it

[Guard13007]

I said 1.7x weight. My mistake on lift and drag which is 5 times greater (used the lift equation and halved Eves twice.

Sorry, I mis-read that because I was so confused with the 2.5 and why did you half it? I don't get why you're taking half of it.

[Guard13007]

The X6

Another experimental launch vehicle to experiment with. I have no idea how bad it is, just know that it can get into orbit.

And here's one I played around a bit with.

I know I need to get better at this, but that's why I'm here asking and discussing and failing all over the place. xD

Download it here: http://www./?kxdcd65set3jpz6