Landing on a Mun and returning

[Actually_New_KSP_Player]

As title says. Playing on 1.4.2 version complete vanilla career mode. I made a ship with a wiki tutorial called "Mun for Dummies" even though it was saying that it's from 1.0 to 1.2 version and it worked fine enough so i gathered some science from science jr's and goo on Mun's orbit and successfully returned. But when i decided to land on it i noticed that i losing lots of fuel on burning prograde for transfer and then retrograde to make orbit, so i lose all my fuel upon landing and can't go back anymore. Tried removing part of fuel and using Spark engine instead of Terrier or adding even more fuel, waiting for a better Mun position etc and still losing almost everything on landing. Although the best wayback attempt was like 250 km's Kerbin periapsis. Is there a way i can save more fuel (except the obvious ones like burning or slowing down on periapsis\apoapsis) or should i make a new ship?

 

In case you wonder what ship i am using look up for "Mun for Dummies" tutorial and add to it Science Jar with 4 panels that defend you from heat and Service bay with Goo.

 

 

[bewing]

2 hours ago, Actually_New_KSP_Player said:

with 4 panels that defend you from heat

This may be your problem. I think you mean a heatshield. You only need one at most -- 4 is too many. They are very heavy. They have a lot of stuff on them called "ablative", that you do not need. Ablative is also very heavy, but it can be removed when you build your craft.

If I'm wrong and you don't mean a heatshield, then the only other thing you could mean is a radiator panel? You do not need those at all. They are also very heavy, and are not useful on a trip to the Mun.

 

[Actually_New_KSP_Player]

1 hour ago, bewing said:

This may be your problem. I think you mean a heatshield. You only need one at most -- 4 is too many. They are very heavy. They have a lot of stuff on them called "ablative", that you do not need. Ablative is also very heavy, but it can be removed when you build your craft.

If I'm wrong and you don't mean a heatshield, then the only other thing you could mean is a radiator panel? You do not need those at all. They are also very heavy, and are not useful on a trip to the Mun.

 

Yeah, the radiator panels, i used them because it often happened that while landing on Kerbin my Science Jr exploded due to speed and temperatures. Didn't know that ablative pretty heavy and can be removed though.

 

Edit: Hmm, i didn't thought that ~200 kilos would affect my ship that much that i made it back to Kerbin with my first aerobraking attempt, however there was just enough fuel so i had like ~10 points of liquid fuel left for slowing down.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Actually_New_KSP_Player

[Aeroboi]

2 hours ago, Actually_New_KSP_Player said:

As title says. Playing on 1.4.2 version complete vanilla career mode. I made a ship with a wiki tutorial called "Mun for Dummies" even though it was saying that it's from 1.0 to 1.2 version and it worked fine enough so i gathered some science from science jr's and goo on Mun's orbit and successfully returned. But when i decided to land on it i noticed that i losing lots of fuel on burning prograde for transfer and then retrograde to make orbit, so i lose all my fuel upon landing and can't go back anymore. Tried removing part of fuel and using Spark engine instead of Terrier or adding even more fuel, waiting for a better Mun position etc and still losing almost everything on landing. Although the best wayback attempt was like 250 km's Kerbin periapsis. Is there a way i can save more fuel (except the obvious ones like burning or slowing down on periapsis\apoapsis) or should i make a new ship?

 

In case you wonder what ship i am using look up for "Mun for Dummies" tutorial and add to it Science Jar with 4 panels that defend you from heat and Service bay with Goo.

 

 

Install this little mod called Kerbal Engineer Redux https://github.com/jrbudda/KerbalEngineer/releases
It creates a seperate UI during vessel editing and in flight interface that shows the amount of Delta-V. Delta-V is the amount of velocity displacement a vessel can exhaust when burning all the fuel onboard. It more or less tells you your gas mileage.
You can do a manned return to the Mun for a Delta-V of just under 6000. If the KER mod shows this or there above then you should be good if you have decent thrust at launch.
Thrust has a ratio to vessel weight that indicates how fast it can lift of the ground in toddler terms. This ratio is shown in KER also and is called TWR or SLT.
The number shown should be at least 1.00+ to lift of the ground but you want it to be near 1.50 and never lower then 1.30 for fuel efficiency.

My advice for beginners is to have a vessel with a TWR / SLT at launch of 1.40-1.60 packed with 7000 meter per second of Delta-V to do a Mun surface return mission.
Install Kerbal engineer, fire it, see how much Delta-V and TWR you have, if Dv is around 6500-7000 you should be able to go to the surface and back to Kerbin.
Keep practicing to pilot your vessel if KER shows it can do so because then all that is required is for you to be a good pilot.

Give us a proper screenshot  Pressing F1 takes a in game screenshot which is send to the "screenshot" folder which is in the default KSP directory. Upload it to a image sharing site and link the pictures to us. If you use Steam to start KSP you can also use F12 to take screenshots.
Make a picture of your craft on the Munar surface ready for departure to Kerbin with amount of fuel in the resource tab shown and Delta-V shown with KER.
Now make another screenshot with the whole rocket in the editor window of the VAB with KER readout.

Also signup to KerbalX
Here you can upload your craft (craft files are located in KSP directory/saves/yoursavename/Ships/VAB or SPH)
Now I or anyone could test fly your craft, this probably gets the best advice of all.

My assumption: You have close to 6000-6500 Delta-V so you should just make it but you are inexperienced at piloting so you made mistakes so you waste to much fuel and fall a little short. So the solutions are...

1: Check your Delta-V and increase it with more fuel.
or...
2: Your rocket is ok but you can still improve your efficiency with piloting, in which case you should keep on practicing with your current vessel.

For personal reference: My first successful Mun mission attempt and back was in 2014 I believe. I recreated my rocket I used that day and apparently I used one with a Delta-V of just over 9000!!!! and I needed 7 attempts to pull it of. These days I do it with more then 1500 less and complaining while I brought so much extra fuel along the way.

As for piloting, you can only watch videos and practice. There's very little to put into words that might help you with this.

As for heatshields:  Just re-iterating what @bewing said because it will definitely help you to make the necessary requirement to complete your mission. If you use a regular 1.25m sized capsule with 1.25m sized heatshield (I'm guessing this is your craft) you can empty pretty much 90% of all the ablator which consumes most of the default weight the heatshield comes with and you still have enough to survive re-entry from the Mun without overheating. If you have no heat intolerant parts you require no heatshields when coming back from the Mun.

The reason all that ablator is there to begin with is because the game might think you attempt to do a aerobraking at high interplanetary speed to the Gas Giant Jool among other such places. Such a thing is one of the design implementations one might require in this game, but for aerobraking from the Mun it really isn't necessary to have all that ablator.

This ablator saving trick saves quite a lot and if you managed to get Pe to 250km on Kerbin you'll definitely make it just by removing the ablator.
Another tip is that crew capsules hold monopropellant by default which is also weight.
If you do not use RCS on board you don't need this monopropellant, which saves weight and you'll have a greater mileage albeit marginal.

Also, you should know that wing segments also work as radiators and protect all parts behind it when strained under re-entry heating. I'm just saying to expand your horizon in terms of build options.
I'm also saying this because I myself have unorthodox configurations of my SC-9001 science Jr. Sometimes I do a re-entry where weight displacement causes me to bank slightly into the incoming air. Having a heatshield on the bottom of the science instrument bay then fails to protect that part anymore.
So often I just put a wing segment on the science jr. Firstly this acts as a radiator so it doesn't blow up, secondly it actually shields it from the air assuming you can actuate your vessel during aerobraking so that the wing covering heat intolerant parts can actually shield it properly.
It is trickier because you'll have to know how to balance lift versus weight for which no mod is needed by the way. Lots of blablabla but maybe you don't like wings on a rocket upper stage. It's just a design option I use myself very often that I wanted to get of my plate, maybe you like this.

[mystifeid]

I did that tutorial without a heat shield (did some aerobraking) and the only extras I took were: a battery, two radial drogue chutes, a reaction wheel and two solar panels. I didn't think there was much fat built into the fuel supply and in fact, the tutorial seemed to consistently overestimate how much I should have left. I don't know how much extra gear I could have taken - but a heat shield would have helped. Could just be me though I'd suggest redesigning that ship.

[Zhetaan]

3 hours ago, Actually_New_KSP_Player said:

i noticed that i losing lots of fuel on burning prograde for transfer and then retrograde to make orbit

You made it too heavy.  @bewing covered the important bits there.

3 hours ago, Actually_New_KSP_Player said:

Tried removing part of fuel and using Spark engine instead of Terrier

The Terrier is the better engine in almost every case--it's more efficient.  The Spark is best for extremely small craft, such as probes, where it wins over the Terrier because it's lighter.

3 hours ago, Actually_New_KSP_Player said:

Is there a way i can save more fuel (except the obvious ones like burning or slowing down on periapsis\apoapsis) or should i make a new ship?

Normally, I'd say to get rid of the radiators, add one heat shield, take out all but at most fifty Ablator, and keep the shield pointed forward on re-entry (again, @bewing ninjas me here--do you ever sleep?), but it seems that you have a solid grasp of the basics.  Mun for Dummies is a comprehensive tutorial (aside from the fact that it tells you to launch straight up and turn forty-five degrees hard over at 10 km), so if you've completed it, then I think you're ready to design your own Mun mission.  Take what you've already learned and play with it a bit.  See what you can find out.

[Actually_New_KSP_Player]

42 minutes ago, Aeroboi said:

Install this little mod called Kerbal Engineer Redux https://github.com/jrbudda/KerbalEngineer/releases
It creates a seperate UI during vessel editing and in flight interface that shows the amount of Delta-V. Delta-V is the amount of velocity displacement a vessel can exhaust when burning all the fuel onboard. It more or less tells you your gas mileage.
You can do a manned return to the Mun for a Delta-V of just under 6000. If the KER mod shows this or there above then you should be good if you have decent thrust at launch.
Thrust has a ratio to vessel weight that indicates how fast it can lift of the ground in toddler terms. This ratio is shown in KER also and is called TWR or SLT.
The number shown should be at least 1.00+ to lift of the ground but you want it to be near 1.50 and never lower then 1.30 for fuel efficiency.

My advice for beginners is to have a vessel with a TWR / SLT at launch of 1.40-1.60 packed with 7000 meter per second of Delta-V to do a Mun surface return mission.
Install Kerbal engineer, fire it, see how much Delta-V and TWR you have, if Dv is around 6500-7000 you should be able to go to the surface and back to Kerbin.
Keep practicing to pilot your vessel if KER shows it can do so because then all that is required is for you to be a good pilot.

Give us a proper screenshot  Pressing F1 takes a in game screenshot which is send to the "screenshot" folder which is in the default KSP directory. Upload it to a image sharing site and link the pictures to us. If you use Steam to start KSP you can also use F12 to take screenshots.
Make a picture of your craft on the Munar surface ready for departure to Kerbin with amount of fuel in the resource tab shown and Delta-V shown with KER.
Now make another screenshot with the whole rocket in the editor window of the VAB with KER readout.

Also signup to KerbalX
Here you can upload your craft (craft files are located in KSP directory/saves/yoursavename/Ships/VAB or SPH)
Now I or anyone could test fly your craft, this probably gets the best advice of all.

My assumption: You have close to 6000-6500 Delta-V so you should just make it but you are inexperienced at piloting so you made mistakes so you waste to much fuel and fall a little short. So the solutions are...

1: Check your Delta-V and increase it with more fuel.
or...
2: Your rocket is ok but you can still improve your efficiency with piloting, in which case you should keep on practicing with your current vessel.

For personal reference: My first successful Mun mission attempt and back was in 2014 I believe. I recreated my rocket I used that day and apparently I used one with a Delta-V of just over 9000!!!! and I needed 7 attempts to pull it of. These days I do it with more then 1500 less and complaining while I brought so much extra fuel along the way.

As for piloting, you can only watch videos and practice. There's very little to put into words that might help you with this.

As for heatshields:  Just re-iterating what @bewing said because it will definitely help you to make the necessary requirement to complete your mission. If you use a regular 1.25m sized capsule with 1.25m sized heatshield (I'm guessing this is your craft) you can empty pretty much 90% of all the ablator which consumes most of the default weight the heatshield comes with and you still have enough to survive re-entry from the Mun without overheating. If you have no heat intolerant parts you require no heatshields when coming back from the Mun.

The reason all that ablator is there to begin with is because the game might think you attempt to do a aerobraking at high interplanetary speed to the Gas Giant Jool among other such places. Such a thing is one of the design implementations one might require in this game, but for aerobraking from the Mun it really isn't necessary to have all that ablator.

This ablator saving trick saves quite a lot and if you managed to get Pe to 250km on Kerbin you'll definitely make it just by removing the ablator.
Another tip is that crew capsules hold monopropellant by default which is also weight.
If you do not use RCS on board you don't need this monopropellant, which saves weight and you'll have a greater mileage albeit marginal.

Also, you should know that wing segments also work as radiators and protect all parts behind it when strained under re-entry heating. I'm just saying to expand your horizon in terms of build options.
I'm also saying this because I myself have unorthodox configurations of my SC-9001 science Jr. Sometimes I do a re-entry where weight displacement causes me to bank slightly into the incoming air. Having a heatshield on the bottom of the science instrument bay then fails to protect that part anymore.
So often I just put a wing segment on the science jr. Firstly this acts as a radiator so it doesn't blow up, secondly it actually shields it from the air assuming you can actuate your vessel during aerobraking so that the wing covering heat intolerant parts can actually shield it properly.
It is trickier because you'll have to know how to balance lift versus weight for which no mod is needed by the way. Lots of blablabla but maybe you don't like wings on a rocket upper stage. It's just a design option I use myself very often that I wanted to get of my plate, maybe you like this.

Thank you! That's a lot of useful info. But how do i open KER tab while in flight? It seems not reacting to my clicks. Google said that it requires KER module, an engineer aboard or level 3 tracking station.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Actually_New_KSP_Player

[Kryxal]

Another thing, the Science Jr. is made of explodium when you re-enter with it, consider pulling the results from it and re-enter without it.

[Aeroboi]

1 hour ago, Actually_New_KSP_Player said:

Thank you! That's a lot of useful info. But how do i open KER tab while in flight? It seems not reacting to my clicks. Google said that it requires KER module, an engineer aboard or level 3 tracking station.

Forgot to mention. The KER module is the part in "Command and control" construction tab. It should be the part with the circuit board thumbnail, just smack it on your craft. I usually put it in a cargo bay. If you don't have cargo bays yet i'd smack it straight on to the Mk-1 command pod and use the move tool to drag it inside so it is hidden for aesthetic purposes. The move tool is this icon shown in the upper left corner during construction.

Anyway, the Delta-V shown in KER during construction is the same Delta-V at launch, so if that hits the proper value your craft should be good enough.

[Actually_New_KSP_Player]

19 hours ago, Aeroboi said:

Forgot to mention. The KER module is the part in "Command and control" construction tab.

For some reason in my situation it is in Science tab, but anyways thank you.

 

20 hours ago, Kryxal said:

Another thing, the Science Jr. is made of explodium when you re-enter with it, consider pulling the results from it and re-enter without it.

Pull it to Experiment Storage Unit you mean? But how do i deal with its shape?

[Kryxal]

I actually meant to send a Kerbal out and grab the experiment manually, but whatever works.  I haven't actually used the Experiment Storage, but isn't it a reasonable size to go on TOP of a capsule?

[Actually_New_KSP_Player]

40 minutes ago, Kryxal said:

I actually meant to send a Kerbal out and grab the experiment manually, but whatever works.  I haven't actually used the Experiment Storage, but isn't it a reasonable size to go on TOP of a capsule?

I have hard times landing now due to accidentally adding horizontal speed and also landing gear glitch which makes them explode even on 0.1 m\s touchdown so i'm going to try home made fix and see if it works. I landed once and lost with it 3-4 legs out of 8 while losing ton of electricity on SAS to stay stable.

Didn't consider pulling the storage on top though, so i'll grab it for first launch and see if it's needed in case my legs still being destroyed.

 

Edited August 31, 2018 by Actually_New_KSP_Player