Lost, unfinished, pyramid in egypt?! +Great pyramid brewery?!

[adsii1970]

@Green Baron: you do realize I live for academic debate... and we have probably out-nerded the nerds on this thread!

8 minutes ago, Green Baron said:

Never heard of archaeo-astronomy, though people i knew made for an exhibition in Bonn, Germany 200...7 (?) a movie projection that showed the development of the northern hemisphere's night sky over the last 250,000 years, as was known by then from the relative movement of stars. Very impressive that was ... you wouldn't recognize some parts ...

Exactly. Let me recommend some ways to spend your next paycheck:

• E. C. Krupp:
  • https://www.amazon.com/Skywatchers-Shamans-Kings-Archaeology-1996-10-14/dp/B01FIYJYLS/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1538355859&sr=8-3&keywords=E.+C.+Krupp
  • https://www.amazon.com/Echoes-Ancient-Skies-Astronomy-Civilizations-ebook/dp/B00A62YA6C/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1538355859&sr=8-4&keywords=E.+C.+Krupp
  • https://www.amazon.com/Big-Dipper-You-C-Krupp/dp/0688071910/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1538355859&sr=8-10&keywords=E.+C.+Krupp
• Anthony Aventi:
  • https://www.amazon.com/Stairways-Stars-Skywatching-Ancient-Cultures/dp/0471329762/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1538355973&sr=8-1&keywords=stairway+to+the+stars
  • https://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Moon-Science-Mystery-Eclipses-ebook/dp/B06XWLN8HH/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1538356020&sr=8-1&keywords=Anthony+Aveni
• John North:
  • https://www.amazon.com/Stonehenge-Neolithic-Cosmos-John-North-ebook/dp/B01MG48UA3/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1538356076&sr=8-1&keywords=stonehenge+north

Those are a few of the books I am familiar with - and would recommend about the field of archeo-astronomy. And in each of these books, statements similar to yours is made. The shift is most evident with the Mayans. I think they kept as good astronomy records - if not better - than the Babylonians and Chinese.

16 minutes ago, Green Baron said:

And the knowledge to handle a sextant is still mandatory, at least for sailors. It'll be foolish to try a crossing from the mainland to here without one. Lightning strikes on a plastic boat and the electronics go head first. 5° off course and you're lost on great blue waters.

But it's not just in ships anymore... I get a laugh when I see the articles of people getting lost with GPS on road trips...

But think of this - we know the Polynesian people migrated from Indochina through the Philippines, all the way to Hawaii without the use of anything other than the stars and sun to guide them. Hell, even the Vikings did it around 1,000 _CE/AD. About a decade ago, I read an article in an archaeology journal about a Roman trade ship found in the Indian Ocean... All before the use of a sextant.

20 minutes ago, Green Baron said:

This is far beyond my scope. I was mostly under way in the (European) paleolithic. Though the neolithisation thing as well as the pre-roman bronze- and iron age had a grip on me for almost 2 years. I had the reputation of having read it all. I must add, i was a senior student and the young guys and gals always saw me in the morning sitting in the library. Which i simply did because i had to come early (before 6 in the morning) because of traffic around Stuttgart, Germany.

When I was in graduate school I was going through another divorce. I lived in the library during both my time as a MA student and as a Ph.D. student. You're in good company. And most of the time I was reading things just for the sheer enjoyment of gaining more knowledge.

23 minutes ago, Green Baron said:

Which brings us back to the Great Pyramid. What exactly is the base to not assume that Great Pyramid is or was a burial place ?

Fair enough. Until the 1950s, it was assumed it was a burial pyramid. We knew who designed it and we knew what his purpose was (or so we thought) based on hieroglyphics found at other sites, especially Thebes. But the problem is after burial, pictographs and hieroglyphics are normally added to a burial chamber. But within the Great Pyramid - even in the Great Hall where they should be - they're not there. And the sarcophagus was too small for a human body (http://www.khufu.dk/article/sarcophagus.htm) and no mummy or bodies were ever found within the Great Pyramid (https://www.ancient-code.com/this-is-why-the-great-pyramid-of-giza-wasnt-built-as-a-tomb/).

But, I guess if we wanted to have a fun explanation...

[Green Baron]

7 hours ago, adsii1970 said:

@Green Baron: you do realize I live for academic debate... and we have probably out-nerded the nerds on this thread!

This must of course be corrected.

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[recommendations]

I ... very much appreciate that, but honestly i have severe problems keeping the pace with my stuff.

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But think of this - we know the Polynesian people migrated from Indochina through the Philippines, all the way to Hawaii without the use of anything other than the stars and sun to guide them. Hell, even the Vikings did it around 1,000 _CE/AD. About a decade ago, I read an article in an archaeology journal about a Roman trade ship found in the Indian Ocean... All before the use of a sextant.

Yep, east/west along a latitude or along a coast is not much of a problem. You seem to have deep knowledge in the cultural sciences, so you probably know the story of Hanno the Navigator (which immediately awakens a terribly catchy song in my mind i'll post over in the appropriate thread asap ).

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When I was in graduate school I was going through another divorce. I lived in the library during both my time as a MA student and as a Ph.D. student. You're in good company. And most of the time I was reading things just for the sheer enjoyment of gaining more knowledge.

No drug can give one that feeling :-)

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Fair enough. Until the 1950s, it was assumed it was a burial pyramid. We knew who designed it and we knew what his purpose was (or so we thought) based on hieroglyphics found at other sites, especially Thebes. But the problem is after burial, pictographs and hieroglyphics are normally added to a burial chamber. But within the Great Pyramid - even in the Great Hall where they should be - they're not there. And the sarcophagus was too small for a human body (http://www.khufu.dk/article/sarcophagus.htm)

Inner dimensions: 198*68*87cm. That's enough for 3 L-size humanoids, if i may say so. East of the pyramid are the foundations of the funeral temple, the smaller pyramids for the wives are on a separate close by cemetery, as are the mastabas of high officials, many planned, some realised, some later. Nearby are pits with skiffs, one of them has been restored and sits now in a museum. Archeology ! :-) The other waits for future analysis. Access path and surrounding walls are missing, though some foundations are still visible. Sounds like a typical and complete burial compound, doesn't it ? Well, maybe an XL version ... even if some decoration is not as it "should be" ... this is a burial complex, right ?

The missing of substance and stones of the pyramid, temple and surroundings is easily explained by the later use as a quarry for instant construction material. A typical thing everywhere in the world.

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and no mummy or bodies were ever found within the Great Pyramid (https://www.ancient-code.com/this-is-why-the-great-pyramid-of-giza-wasnt-built-as-a-tomb/).

Correct, the pyramid has been stripped presumable in pharaonic times and later of everything except the sarcophagus that is too heavy to take away and doesn't even fit through the corridors.

Sorry, but that link you gave is nonsensical and does not cite correctly and there is no published work to backup the claims in it. It is the conspiracy stuff i was arguing against, with hidden formulae, occult symbolism, blowing up obvious things as being miracles ... ignore it. This forum deserves moar ! :-)

The pop science answer to it: https://www.sciencealert.com/here-s-how-scientists-know-the-pyramids-were-built-to-store-pharaohs-not-grain plus two hundred years of research. It is not like there are no traces of storage facilities. An example for a (much later) grain silo: https://news.uchicago.edu/story/archaeologists-find-silos-and-administration-center-early-egyptian-city i found when doing a quick search.

 

*Goes along humming Al Stweart*

:-)

 

Edited October 1, 2018 by Green Baron
Stupid translation errors :-)

[Green Baron]

The pyramids are a water pump is really the style of the great grand master of conspiracy and pseudoscience: Erich von Däniken. He is so ... occult ... you can't even type his name because "they" have banned the key from the keyboards. Only very few, initiated to the "First Ring" have the ability. But we must not tell ... we would all be devoured by the aaaarrgh ...

... ... ... ...

Sorry, that wasn't exactly necessary. But i just could not resist :-)

Pyramids are tombs. All of them. This is verifiable. Demonstrable in many cases. Which has nothing to with "monster" ...

Edited October 1, 2018 by Green Baron

[Scotius]

It always amuses me when people spout "We wouldn't be able to build pyramids today! Therefore Aliens!" stuff on internet. Conveniently overlooking several large scale projects that are much more complicated than Great Pyramid. Things like Burj Khalifa, colossal Three Gorges Dam, Channel Tunnel, several artificial islands and so on. We are able to build a copy of Gizeh complex today. It's just no one wants to finance such folly

[YNM]

2 minutes ago, Scotius said:

Conveniently overlooking several large scale projects that are much more complicated than Great Pyramid.

Come to think of it, the spoil from Suez Canal would've been enough to build 300 Giza pyramids. Though spoil isn't exactly rock blocks...

 

Also, we were talking of payment in liquor or their usage as a liquor production site.

[Scotius]

"Payment in liquor", huh? If you can call this low quality slush of water, mashed grains and yeast a liquor. As a part of a daily food ration? Yes - absolutely. It was an additional source of calories and microelements. Certainly a better drink than water from the Nile. And surely a great morale booster But in a hot climate it wouldn't stay drinkable for more than a couple of days. You wouldn't be able to take it home. You could trade your jug of beer for something offered on place - but you wouldn't be able to take it to marketplace and buy a pair of sandals with it. Besides, it was ubiquitous - every village would have its own small brewery (usually adjacent to local tavern) producing fresh batch every week or so. Which means that heavy, fragile clay jug of beer you carried for several miles for trade would be worth very little.

Same thing happened in Mesopotamia. Locally brewed beer was used as a part of daily ration of food. Which in many cases actually was the pay for the local workforce. But no one hauled (or produced) huge amounts of beer to use it as a proper trading commodity. They would send a load of grain instead. Only tradeable liquor was wine, which could keep just fine for months if it was properly made and stored.

Grain. Textiles. Leather products. Ceramic vessels. Pieces of metals of differing values. Sometimes livestock. Those are items widely used as trading goods and "payment" across the ancient world. Things you could store, use yourself or exchange for other products. Not beer that would spoil in less than a week and was produced everywhere. You could as well try to pay workers repairing your house only with hot coffee

[Green Baron]

9 hours ago, YNM said:

Also, we were talking of payment in liquor or their usage as a liquor production site.

Payment in beer was a thing during pyramid construction in Egypt, the use of a pyramid as a brewery not.

Traces of brewing installations are far more easily lost in time than a pyramid. Nevertheless breweries have been dug out and residual analyses were done. The ancient Egyptian brewing process seems to be similar to recent brewing e. g. in Sudan. But i don't have the time for a search now.

@Scotius, i am not sure if brewing beverages was a monopoly, at least at some times. Though of course this might have changed from time to time. And we know people can be inventive if their little joys are taken from them ;-)

[YNM]

9 minutes ago, Green Baron said:

... The use of a pyramid as a brewery not. ...

They could've set up a temporary site nearby ?

26 minutes ago, Scotius said:

If you can call this low quality slush of water, mashed grains and yeast a liquor.

I was trying to be general.

26 minutes ago, Scotius said:

But in a hot climate it wouldn't stay drinkable for more than a couple of days.

Eh, who knows what people's tastes are... I mean, we eat spoiled soybeans and spoiled milk ?

Edited October 2, 2018 by YNM

[Scotius]

" Zymomonas is an unwanted waterborne bacteria in beer, creating an estery-sulfury flavor due to the production of acetaldehyde and hydrogen sulfide. This can be likened to a rotten apple smell or fruity odor. Zymomonas have not been reported in lager breweries due to the low temperatures (8–12 °C) and stringent carbohydrate requirements (able to ferment only sucrose, glucose, and fructose). It is commonly found in cask-conditioned ales where priming sugar is used to carbonate the beer. The optimum growth temperature is 25 to 30 degrees Celsius."

You would have to be very, very thirsty to even try drinking something stinking like rotten apples.

[Green Baron]

I think i am going to miss dinner today ...

Edited October 2, 2018 by Green Baron

[wumpus]

There have been a few "revivals" of ancient beer, and mostly for curiosity's sake as beer has moved on (notably with the addition of hops in the middle ages).

I suppose they could store beer in either the quarry or the pyramid itself (thanks to using the Earth as a heatsink), but this probably requires hauling the beer up and down too much of an elevation change for too short for the length of time the beer was good.  Better to just drink it.

If somebody tried to make a monopoly on brewing, I'd expect a revolt and a new pharaoh.  But perhaps "monopolizing the beer" was a slander used to justify a coup?  Who knows?  Generally speaking the fancy hieroglyphics on walls was pure political propaganda (often writing of "great victories" before the battle was fought).  If there was a monopoly of brewing for any significant length of time (presumably centuries when talking about Egypt) you'd expect it to show up on the scribe's tallies.  That's where the history was really recorded, but trying to find preserved records and making sense of them (especially finding the right context: things that were obvious to the scribes is quite a different thing from a cache of a bunch of records) is another story.

13 minutes ago, Scotius said:

" Zymomonas is an unwanted waterborne bacteria in beer, creating an estery-sulfury flavor due to the production of acetaldehyde and hydrogen sulfide. This can be likened to a rotten apple smell or fruity odor. Zymomonas have not been reported in lager breweries due to the low temperatures (8–12 °C) and stringent carbohydrate requirements (able to ferment only sucrose, glucose, and fructose). It is commonly found in cask-conditioned ales where priming sugar is used to carbonate the beer. The optimum growth temperature is 25 to 30 degrees Celsius."

You would have to be very, very thirsty to even try drinking something stinking like rotten apples.

From "Beer & Brewing magazine" (second hit after wiki).  "This bacterium is distinctive in that it can ferment glucose, fructose, and sucrose—as can brewers yeasts—but it cannot ferment maltose."  I'm guessing that Egyptian brewers didn't have any glucose, fructose, or sucrose in their beer, about the only way that could happen is if they tried to cask condition it with honey.  Egyptian beer was quite primitive, although possibly to limit just what yeasts would make the beer.

 

Edited October 2, 2018 by wumpus
noted Egyptian beer was probably just malts

[YNM]

21 minutes ago, Scotius said:

Zymomonas is an unwanted waterborne bacteria in beer, creating an estery-sulfury flavor due to the production of acetaldehyde and hydrogen sulfide.

"Tempe bongkrèk is a variety of tempeh from Central Java, notably Banyumas regency, that is prepared with coconut dregs. This type of tempeh has led to several cases of fatal food poisoning, as it occasionally gets contaminated with the bacterium Burkholderia gladioli, and the unwanted organism produces toxins (bongkrek acid and toxoflavin) from the coconut, besides killing off the Rhizopus fungus due to the antibiotic activity of bongkrek acid."

 

And yet, oddly enough, we eat them.

 

There's also this maggot cheese.

Edited October 2, 2018 by YNM

[YNM]

A bit off-topic but :

On 10/1/2018 at 8:27 AM, adsii1970 said:

we know the Polynesian people migrated from Indochina through the Philippines, all the way to Hawaii without the use of anything other than the stars and sun to guide them. Hell, even the Vikings did it around 1,000 _CE/AD. About a decade ago, I read an article in an archaeology journal about a Roman trade ship found in the Indian Ocean... All before the use of a sextant. 

We still do them, esp. the traditional small boats, usually for fishing. All you need is a look at the weather and timing the dates right (usually by the stars). The current and wind will guide you the right way - you can do some correction mid-way of course.