Colonising Mars and a meme I found

[Terwin]

On 10/6/2018 at 2:31 AM, Cassel said:

I repeat, the addiction to technology has deprived people of the intellect. The fact that we should cease to be extravagant and more economical to approach raw materials management does not mean that we must use tools that were used hundreds of years ago. We can use modern tools only we need to learn to live more economically and pay more attention to how many things we waste. How many things we produce only for the sake of production, not for us to serve us as long as possible. In this sense, I wrote about returning to what was centuries ago.

People learn what they spend their time on, and they make use of what they have easily available.

In the paleolithic people spent most of their time trying to survive, so most of the skills that were developed were survival skills(this plant is good to eat, that plant makes you sick, the leaves of that other plant will kill you, and the bark of this tree tastes bad but makes pain less, etc).  People spent a lot of time hunting and gathering and were probably better at doing so in an uncontrolled environment than most modern humans would be.  This would mostly be because that is what they spent all their time doing, so they learned to do it very well.

If you grow up with sparse resources, you will find uses for just about anything you have in abundance, even if it is just using unusual bits for decoration, and you will have an abundance of any part of the animal which does not already have one or more uses(as the hunters will be collecting lots of them to feed the tribe on their meat).

The less time people devote to survival skills, the less developed those skills will be.  Personally, I have done some research on survival techniques, but would not want to stake my life on using them to survive long-term.

On the other hand, I have spent a significant percentage of my life learning the ins and outs of computers and computer programming and practicing those skills, so I am able to do it quite well.

While I will not argue against the fact that some people can't handle tools in a responsible manner(be this an inexperienced rider attempting to show manliness by attempting to ride a feral horse, or a phone-zombie stepping out into traffic without bothering to look), that is hardly the most common case, just a case that people tend to remember when it goes poorly(as it often does).

The reason people are more extravagant with resource usage is that, through the use of tools, the opportunity cost of optimizing the use of things in our daily lives is often higher than the cost of wasting some of those resources and just replacing them.

[kerbiloid]

Mysterious hills of the Red Planet full of power.

Spoiler

 

9 hours ago, YNM said:

Worker's union. Same stuff.

No. They don't keep secrets.

[YNM]

2 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

They don't keep secrets.

Government Code & Cypher School.

[kerbiloid]

5 hours ago, YNM said:

Government Code & Cypher School.

I don't know why this.

You probably don't build gothic cathedrals or stone castles from the gathered stones shaped manually and placed in some tricky order.
If you need a >2 storey building you probably just make an armored concrete framework and fill&cover it with anything you want.
And there is a lot of companies doing this, not just the only mason guild per city, and a lot of colleges and universities teaching the builders.

It's strange that somebody haven't heard about Le Corbusier principles from the earley XX, Albert Kahn and so on..

Instead of manure-only agriculture of future, since Haber and Bosch had created their process the humnity mostly gets nitric fertilizers right from air, and this way is much more productive and stable.

Medical stuff is unthinkable without a highly developed industry.

19 hours ago, Cassel said:

If the knowledge conveyed by these illiterates was wrong then this wonderful industrial revolution could not take place, because the illiterate would not be able to produce enough food to feed their own families and all those people in cities.

Compared to any college course, that knowledge was either trivial or fantastic.
And in most cases a degraded version of a someone experienced lecture.
Like the "folk music" (i.e. "we don't know that guy from the town who sang it").

19 hours ago, Cassel said:

This revolution is nothing more than the exploitation of women and children.

They were exploitated since getting down from trees.
But the technology has been developed much later. So, no.

19 hours ago, Cassel said:

And how is it today? 99% is feeding 1%? We went in a better direction or worse?

I'm not sure if this is actually a joke, so
https://ourworldindata.org/urbanization

and

Spoiler

 

19 hours ago, Cassel said:

There is a difference between eating something that native Americans ate for hundreds of years,

You can compare the potatoes and tomatoes first brought to Europe and after decades of their breeding in urban culture.
The same with many other fruits. You can list some medieval fruit varieties which you are still eating, if you find.

19 hours ago, Cassel said:

The only question is whether the resources you can get from the rabbit are just as useful as those of larger animals such as deer?

???
What's not useful in rabbits?
Meat, skin/fur, compost.
And they donlt have useless horns.

Unlike the deer you can slaughter almost all your rabbits, and get the restored population in 2-3 years.

19 hours ago, Cassel said:

It is better to conduct experiments on deer than on children and after a few failed pregnancies state that we missed something.

Then better send cangaroo, they are bipedal. 

19 hours ago, Cassel said:

As I wrote earlier, there will always be some uneducated (being uneducated does not mean being stupid, sometimes intelligent people are taught wrong things), stupid or poor (being poor does not mean being stupid) people who will do anything for money.

And humanity mostly consists of them, so it's OK.

Why do you think you eat something another?

***

Downshifting is nice, but the problem is that sooner or later some downshifter will realize that it's much easier to make a gang of downshifters and to rob other downshifters.
And the only thing you can get as a result - a criminal early feudalism.

(Wild West was just a rural periphery of a mature urbanistic civilization during the industrial revolution, so better don't get inspired by it very much.)

Edited October 9, 2018 by kerbiloid

[YNM]

2 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

I don't know why this.

A secret guild doing secret things.

Guilds still exist today in the form of federations or associations. They can influence the running of a country as a voting block. Military industry, civil industry (like pharmaceuticals, chemicals, manufacturing etc.) can still hide something up their cheeks.

They just get better and better at it.

[kerbiloid]

Spoiler

30 minutes ago, YNM said:

Guilds still exist today in the form of federations or associations. 

Not every society named "guild" is a guild in medieval sense.
A medieval guild was a total monopolist which didn't allow anybody to make same job in the city.
And every kind of business was occupied by the corresponding guild.

You couldn't just learn their technologies because they were guild secrets ancested by the guild members.

You couldn't have your own business even being a member of guild until you become a master.

Eventually they had stopped even graduate new masters except the masters' sons or husbands of the masters' daughters.
So absolutely every business became totally monopolized by a narrow range of several city familes with no possibility to get in.

Even having a lot of money you couldn't open your own workshop. And there was no way to enter any business rather than being a master's son or son-in-law.
Even being a guild member in rank of journeyman/apprentice. 

This became a real problem at the end of medieval.

Until the industrial revolution had allowed to produce as lot of cheap and strong tools and materials as anyone needs, and happily devalued the guild secrets.
Instead of guild workshops, rich people started creating first manufactures, then fabrics.
Then, having just money, you could hire as many workers and specialists as you want and fill the market with cheap products dumping the guild prices.

So, a capital became the decisive factor in industry instead of personal relations.
That's why they call it capitalism.

A guild is a feudal thing, based on personal relations. Of course there is a lot of such relics, but in most cases just the money decides.

***

But an economic formation and medieval guilds discussion is a clear offtopic in a Mars Colonisation Village thread, so would be better to finish it here.

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by kerbiloid

[Cassel]

5 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Compared to any college course, that knowledge was either trivial or fantastic.
And in most cases a degraded version of a someone experienced lecture.
Like the "folk music" (i.e. "we don't know that guy from the town who sang it").

I write about the knowledge of the son of a peasant who at the age of 14 knew the whole process of food production and if he was intelligent, he could improve it, if he was average and he could replace his father anyway.
And you compare this with the knowledge of an adult who goes to university and you do not see the failure of modern education?
Even after graduating, few people would be able to do business today. How many does not even know the manufacturing process of one commodity they are using every day.

Without changing this education system to the way it was before, you can forget about the base on another planet and further development.

Quote

They were exploitated since getting down from trees.
But the technology has been developed much later. So, no.

This, so much praised by you, the industrial revolution has been exploiting people on a scale as never before.

What I have described is only Europe, but add to this colonies around the world, slavery and a plundering way of extracting raw materials.

And this is not the worst yet, because such a crazy economic growth forced the Europeans to lower moral standards so that they could develop even faster. There was no place for pity, because if your country had a slower development for a year or two, the neighbors would have grown so much that it was not clear if your country could catch up with them.
The effect of such a crazy development rate, the fear of failure and the slowdown in the economy is the First World War.
 

Quote

I'm not sure if this is actually a joke, so
https://ourworldindata.org/urbanization

and

  Reveal hidden contents

In feudalism, 90% of the population could not own private property. Today, 99% of private property is taken away, and 1% of incredibly rich people gain from it. Even the Pharaohs had smaller estates.

 

Quote

You can compare the potatoes and tomatoes first brought to Europe and after decades of their breeding in urban culture.
The same with many other fruits. You can list some medieval fruit varieties which you are still eating, if you find.

What do you mean here? Somewhere you've lost the thread, after all I compare food that grows natural with some unproven inventions from the laboratory.

Quote

???
What's not useful in rabbits?
Meat, skin/fur, compost.
And they donlt have useless horns.

The horns are not useless.
The rabbit skin is thinner than the deer, which already limits its use. Meat is different too, in my opinion too lean.
 

Quote

Unlike the deer you can slaughter almost all your rabbits, and get the restored population in 2-3 years.

In fact, deer and rabbits do not fight each other in nature, so why can not you have both?

Quote

Downshifting is nice, but the problem is that sooner or later some downshifter will realize that it's much easier to make a gang of downshifters and to rob other downshifters.

And the only thing you can get as a result - a criminal early feudalism.

I do not understand this.

Quote

(Wild West was just a rural periphery of a mature urbanistic civilization during the industrial revolution, so better don't get inspired by it very much.)

Too many movies :-)

Edited October 9, 2018 by Cassel

[kerbiloid]

1 hour ago, Cassel said:

the son of a peasant who at the age of 14 knew the whole process of food production

Not much to ancest.

1 hour ago, Cassel said:

and if he was intelligent, he could improve it,

Indeed. Once per millenium. They called such smart guys "cultural heroes" or sometime "semi-gods". We know almost all of them by name from the ancient myths and legends.

1 hour ago, Cassel said:

Even after graduating, few people would be able to do business today.

What common the business has with the knowledge?..
The knowledge is needed for an office job in somebody's business.

1 hour ago, Cassel said:

Without changing this education system to the way it was before

Of course it had some advantages.

Spoiler

 

1 hour ago, Cassel said:

the industrial revolution has been exploiting people on a scale as never before.

Not that "never", but yes it has.
And how this takes away its results?

The neolithic revolution also made people to work hard as peasants and has lowered their life standards, so then let's establish the Martian paleolithic and hunt those deer.

1 hour ago, Cassel said:

such a crazy economic growth forced the Europeans to lower moral standards so that they could develop even faster

I'm afraid the moral standards haven't crushed somebody under their weight in the history.
A human is very adaptive being in both moral directions.

1 hour ago, Cassel said:

In feudalism, 90% of the population could not own private property.

You don't need to own the plowland to work on it for your feudal.

1 hour ago, Cassel said:

Today, 99% of private property is taken away,

Today "25%" of population don't live in a city, and still grow enough food to export it and even gift.

1 hour ago, Cassel said:

What do you mean here? Somewhere you've lost the thread, after all I compare food that grows natural with some unproven inventions from the laboratory.

I mean that those garden berries brought to Europe in XV can hardly be compared to modern tomatoes.
The same with potatoes, sunflowers, etc.
Happily there was XIX century.

1 hour ago, Cassel said:

The horns are not useless.
The rabbit skin is thinner than the deer, which already limits its use. Meat is different too, in my opinion too lean.

We obvioudly should refer to Louis XIV notes to understand what to bring to Mars to keep the deer meat deserving the interplanetary flight.

1 hour ago, Cassel said:

In fact, deer and rabbits do not fight each other in nature, so why can not you have both?

Just an economy.
Due to the cosmic radiation and low Martian gravity the rabbits will mutate, grow up several times and get horns.
So by taking the rabbits we automatically gain and Martian deer.

1 hour ago, Cassel said:

Quote

Downshifting is nice, but the problem is that sooner or later some downshifter will realize that it's much easier to make a gang of downshifters and to rob other downshifters.

And the only thing you can get as a result - a criminal early feudalism.

I do not understand this.

No need to plow yourself if you can rob somebody who is doing that.

The less educated persons will realize and implement this idea much faster.

So, rural fantasies lead only in one direction: those who have it will work for the nearest gang.
Hi-tech urban civilization makes the life much safer.

1 hour ago, Cassel said:

Too many movies :-)

?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_frontier

Edited October 9, 2018 by kerbiloid

[tater]

Analogies to Earth are pointless.

In space, the only valuable real estate for humans is 100% created, not found/claimed. Every single cubic meter of space will have to be constructed at great cost. There is no getting around the constructed nature, and the "great cost" part is true until some post-scarcity science fiction future where you simply tell the bots to make you a palace on Mars, and they do so for you (making more bots out of thin air if required to do the work, then scrapping them later). Short of that any society in our solar system off the planet is going to be built by very, very rich people, and apparently as a sort of charity, since there isn't even the most tenuous possibility of an economic driver to colonize another world that I can think of, much less an actual driver.

[Green Baron]

2 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

We obvioudly should refer to Louis XIV notes to understand what to bring to Mars to keep the deer meat deserving the interplanetary flight.

What when where how by which means and who ?

I am the Sun Kerbal and i have colonized Duna. But Mars ? Though the guy in my Avatar is long dead & gone i am absolutely (sic !) sure he has never been to Mars. There weren't enough hairdressers, that's why.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Green Baron

[Cassel]

4 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Not much to ancest.

Indeed. Once per millenium. They called such smart guys "cultural heroes" or sometime "semi-gods". We know almost all of them by name from the ancient myths and legends.

What common the business has with the knowledge?..
The knowledge is needed for an office job in somebody's business.

Knowledge is needed everywhere, it is impossible to run a business or a farm with zero knowledge on the subject.

I see that you have a strange image of capitalism and an extremely good opinion about the industrial revolution, but you do not combine the facts that this revolution could take place it needed raw materials and hands to work.

I do not understand how you can praise the industrial revolution and at the same time criticize the peasant's illiterate son education. After all, this revolution showed that this illiterate son and his way of acquiring knowledge won with the son of a nobleman educated at universities. After winning, illiterate sons created a new science and improved, in their opinion, certain processes in society.

Today, so called "modern" education system is a consequence of this revolution. That is why a future employee of a corporation is learning simple tasks not entire production processes.
This is why corporations can use human resources and shape flow of people and if you are not suited for one job or owner have to reduce employment, then you can easily move somewhere else and do simple tasks there. The experience you gain at work basically means nothing, because after changing/rebuilding the production line, the narrow task that the employee has done so far can disappear completely. We are treated as tools, not as people who can understand the entire production process.

If you want to create an independent and self-sufficient base on another planet then you need to change this system.
 

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Of course it had some advantages.

  Reveal hidden contents

It had many advantages and obedience of children was one of them.

In the base on Mars, there will have to be an education system in which children are obedient. At the moment, the teacher can not keep silence in the classroom, so that talented children do not develop as fast as they would if they were not disturbed by the less able.
In such a base, the child's disobedience is a threat to his health or life, so the punishment will have to be immediate and disciplinary. Without discipline, or otherwise, with the discipline that is now fashionable, you can forget about teenagers on Mars.

There are also few other things. Role of babysitter and school teacher in the Mars base will be a waste of resources. Parents will be responsible for the education of their children and at the same time will teach their children what they do. This is because such a base requires redundancy, so everyone will have to train their child so that it can operate for example hydroponics farm as soon as possible and replace the parent in case of something happens.
Such jobs like a poet or singer will also be a waste of resources, so children will be taught discipline and that they will inherit the social role of their parents in the future.
 

Quote

Not that "never", but yes it has.
And how this takes away its results?

The neolithic revolution also made people to work hard as peasants and has lowered their life standards, so then let's establish the Martian paleolithic and hunt those deer.

Feudalism has given everyone a job, a position in society and a roof over their heads. He had his faults, but the peasants did not need credits to have an apartment, and how does it look today?
 

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So, rural fantasies lead only in one direction: those who have it will work for the nearest gang.
Hi-tech urban civilization makes the life much safer.

?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_frontier

Definitely not. Around 1900, a few years old children ran around the streets and sold newspapers, today you have to have a good babysitter to take care of such a child, because you can not let the child out onto the street alone. In the villages, such kids were running alone all day, coming home to eat something, and today how does it looks like?
Today there are so many dangerous objects in the house that an 8-year-old child can not stay for a few hours alone.

Wild West was not created by aristocrats, if you think it was wrong then think who was there doing wrong things ;-)

As you can see the self-sufficient base on Mars is not only a problem of technology, but also a complete lifestyle remodeling. For this I would also add questions about the economic system, ownership and who will make decisions, rather, there will be no time to vote in critical situations, but those are issues for another thread.

 

Edited October 9, 2018 by Cassel

[tater]

30 minutes ago, Cassel said:

Definitely not. Around 1900, a few years old children ran around the streets and sold newspapers, today you have to have a good babysitter to take care of such a child, because you can not let the child out onto the street alone. In the villages, such kids were running alone all day, coming home to eat something, and today how does it looks like?
Today there are so many dangerous objects in the house that an 8-year-old child can not stay for a few hours alone.

This is not because cities are unsafe, they are in fact vastly safer for kids to wander around right now then they were 100 years ago. It's a failure of modern parenting to let kids have some autonomy.

All this is irrelevant to colonizing Mars, as there can be no such thing as "rural" on Mars. Under the assumption of a colony (a huge stretch, but that's this thread, let's go with it), it will in fact be "urban" by definition. Population density wil necessarily be high, because 100% of the volume used by humans must be specially built to standards that makes terrestrial building look trivial. Any additional volume requires the volume itself be constructed, and that the life support systems necessary to make it habitable are also constructed. Backups, replacements, and failure modes need to be considered, this is not The Martian Chronicles, it's more akin to moving large populations into nuclear submarines (forever).

[Green Baron]

24 minutes ago, tater said:

... let kids have some autonomy.

.... moving large populations into nuclear submarines (forever).

"Daddy, what's that button for ?" :-)

Seriously, nobody is going to colonise Mars in a foreseeable future. And, with regard to the op, nobody is going to run an independent colony in a desert on earth. Except for a few more or less scientific sandbox games.

[Cassel]

33 minutes ago, tater said:

 Population density wil necessarily be high,

You can't go further than we are now in some cities, some even went too far.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Calhoun

[tater]

6 minutes ago, Cassel said:

You can't go further than we are now in some cities, some even went too far.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Calhoun

Cites like NYC are high density, but likely low compared to space colonies (for a while, under the assumption there are any).

Human beings are not mice.

If you think that a Mars colony requires that it be even slight "rural" feeling, then you're saying it's never going to happen (times some factor, since it's pretty unlikely in the far more likely "urban" format).

[Cassel]

17 minutes ago, tater said:

Cites like NYC are high density, but likely low compared to space colonies (for a while, under the assumption there are any).

Human beings are not mice.

If you think that a Mars colony requires that it be even slight "rural" feeling, then you're saying it's never going to happen (times some factor, since it's pretty unlikely in the far more likely "urban" format).

I didn't said anything about "rural feeling". Also you are right we are not mice, we need a lot more space, but this

"Initially, the population grew rapidly, doubling every 55 days. The population reached 620 by day 315, after which the population growth dropped markedly, doubling only every 145 days. The last surviving birth was on day 600, bringing the total population to a mere 2200 mice, even though the experiment setup allowed for as many as 3840 mice in terms of nesting space. This period between day 315 and day 600 saw a breakdown in social structure and in normal social behavior. Among the aberrations in behavior were the following: expulsion of young before weaning was complete, wounding of young, inability of dominant males to maintain the defense of their territory and females, aggressive behavior of females, passivity of non-dominant males with increased attacks on each other which were not defended against."

is what is happening in many cities. First industrial revolution and population started to grow rapidly, each women had 4-5 children, but now it is collapsing 1 or 0 children. If the base on Mars is to be used as a backup for our species, then it will not work with such a densely populated base. We need space to live and function normally, no technology will change that.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Cassel

[Green Baron]

You cannot compare behaviour of mice to that of humans. You cannot even compare the behaviour of wild populations of a species with that of the domesticated fellows. You can, of course, work out the differences.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Green Baron

[Bill Phil]

2 hours ago, Cassel said:

You can't go further than we are now in some cities, some even went too far.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Calhoun

I believe there was one city with a density higher than 1 million people square kilometer...

[tater]

1 hour ago, Cassel said:

is what is happening in many cities. First industrial revolution and population started to grow rapidly, each women had 4-5 children, but now it is collapsing 1 or 0 children. If the base on Mars is to be used as a backup for our species, then it will not work with such a densely populated base. We need space to live and function normally, no technology will change that.

Humans don't reproduce like mice.

The number of children per couple decreases with affluence/modernity, basically. I'd expect Mars would be even more constrained.

[Cassel]

22 minutes ago, tater said:

Humans don't reproduce like mice.

The number of children per couple decreases with affluence/modernity, basically. I'd expect Mars would be even more constrained.

So modernity reduces the number of children in the family? And by modernity, what exactly do you understand? This is a fairly important aspect of the modern base on another planet.

What you wrote also contradicts the facts of the industrial revolution, then the affluence of the average person increased, and this translated into an increase in fertility.

I hope you all do understand that same rules apply to us as to any other mammal? If the each marriage will have less than two children, then we will die out, no matter how many bases we build on other planets.
If the endangered species would multiply as slowly as people in these densely populated cities, the scientists would be alarmed that this species will soon perish.

[Cassel]

42 minutes ago, Bill Phil said:

I believe there was one city with a density higher than 1 million people square kilometer...

If people in densely populated cities do not feel the need to have children, it means that subconsciously these cities are so unfriendly to us that the most basic mechanism of "the desire to have a child" is turned off.
This has to be taken into account when thinking about building a backup colony on Mars. We can have even over 100 such colonies on 100 different planets, but if people will live there in such a conditions that this most basic mechanism of every living creature will be turned off in their brains, humanity will die anyway.

[tater]

15 minutes ago, Cassel said:

So modernity reduces the number of children in the family? And by modernity, what exactly do you understand? This is a fairly important aspect of the modern base on another planet.

Yes, this is uncontroversially true. The Industrial Revolution was a LONG time ago, and birthrates in the 1st world have been dropping for a long time in lockstep with increased standards of living, any local upticks recently have been entirely due to immigration.

 

15 minutes ago, Cassel said:

What you wrote also contradicts the facts of the industrial revolution, then the affluence of the average person increased, and this translated into an increase in fertility.

I said the modern world, not 200 years ago.

 

 

15 minutes ago, Cassel said:

I hope you all do understand that same rules apply to us as to any other mammal? If the each marriage will have less than two children, then we will die out, no matter how many bases we build on other planets.
If the endangered species would multiply as slowly as people in these densely populated cities, the scientists would be alarmed that this species will soon perish.

 

The developed world is already below replacement rate, and has been for a while.

I don't get what you think the point is. IN such a colony, growth is artificially constrained by places to live. I know people who literally moved to New Mexico from NYC because they wanted to have a second child. Why? Because every additional bedroom in NYC costs a million bucks. They moved, then had another kid. If you have a 2 bedroom apartment on Mars, and you want a second kid, they either share a room for 18 years, or you get a bigger place first. Note that since new people consume more LS, the colony either has economics driving this (everyone has to pay for their life support, or they get composted), or you'd have to apply to have a child, and have it approved or face jail/exile. Pick one.

This is actually a non-trivial matter of law. What does a colony do for people that no longer contribute, or are criminals, or who risk the lives of literally everyone via their actions? Chuck them out the airlock?

[Green Baron]

1 hour ago, Cassel said:

If people in densely populated cities do not feel the need to have children, it means that subconsciously these cities are so unfriendly to us that the most basic mechanism of "the desire to have a child" is turned off.
This has to be taken into account when thinking about building a backup colony on Mars. We can have even over 100 such colonies on 100 different planets, but if people will live there in such a conditions that this most basic mechanism of every living creature will be turned off in their brains, humanity will die anyway.

Ya know, we can have children when we want to. And we can avoid it if it isn't opportune atm. What exactly is your point ? That whole procreation thing is such a non issue in a colony, you won't believe it :-) Well, compared to all the other problems ...

 

1 hour ago, tater said:

What does a colony do for people that no longer contribute, or are criminals, or who risk the lives of literally everyone via their actions? Chuck them out the airlock?

Of course laws would have to be set up and communicated, rules about what to to do and what to leave. There must be an exit path for those who expected it all to be soooo different. For a post modern European death penalty is unthinkable. Soylent green is no solution. I am glad that it is not a pressing issue any time soon(tm) *phew* :-)

Edited October 9, 2018 by Green Baron

[kerbiloid]

12 hours ago, tater said:

Chuck them out the airlock?

Such wasting of proteins is disgusting.

In NIven's books they disassemble them for organs.

16 hours ago, Cassel said:

Knowledge is needed everywhere

Yes, and one knowledge man per village is an overkill.
They call him "a village headman". Because one head is absolutely enough for that treasury of knowledge and to manage two hundred hands.
Too clever ones aren't welcomed in agrarian societies, they cause a lot of problems, but can't make the plowland to get plowed itself.
They either advice the same what the headman says, or contradict to him bringing chaos.
Better kick them out from the village to the nearest city another Martian base.

16 hours ago, Cassel said:

it is impossible to run a business or a farm with zero knowledge on the subject.

In case of a one-man business - maybe.
But in greater businesses they usually just hire the specialists.
You should have enough knowledge to understand when they are lying to you or stealing something or are just incompetent.
But when you (are thinking that you) know better than your hired specialists, your daily interference just disturbs and demotivates them. Everybody should have its own role.

16 hours ago, Cassel said:

That is why a future employee of a corporation is learning simple tasks not entire production processes.

He is doing this because 200 years ago in a village an average employee would be solving simple tasks like "take here, carry to there".
Now he with the same talents is just doing this in a city.

16 hours ago, Cassel said:

In the base on Mars, there will have to be an education system in which children are obedient. At the moment, the teacher can not keep silence in the classroom, so that talented children do not develop as fast as they would if they were not disturbed by the less able.

The total obedience has another name - "an agressive conformism".
"Do this like that just because" and "why are you sitting not enough straight" and "development of talented children" doesn't look the same.

16 hours ago, Cassel said:

In such a base, the child's disobedience is a threat to his health or life, so the punishment will have to be immediate and disciplinary. Without discipline, or otherwise, with the discipline that is now fashionable, you can forget about teenagers on Mars.

Only electric necklaces could help. Preferrably with a demolition charge inside.
Otherwise a half of them will keep doing more just out of spite.

16 hours ago, Cassel said:

In the base on Mars, there will have to be an education system in which children are obedient.

Though, yes, there is a way to keep the pupils disciplined and obedient, and it beloves the "sick city - healthy village" theme wholeheartedly. _{(Wow, I even dibn't know about such great looking word.)}
Sometimes detractors call it pedant'ic, but we clearly understand that this is just a powerless malevolence. The Martian colony can just be getting inspiration from Starship Troopers (movie, not book).
Every Martian pupil student cadet should know his place.

16 hours ago, Cassel said:

Role of babysitter and school teacher in the Mars base will be a waste of resources. Parents will be responsible for the education of their children and at the same time will teach their children what they do.

Nope.
We can't allow to the Martian labour be spending its time on the amateur upbringing and education (and usually with pathetic results — see above about the modern employees).
Dad should keep growing the vegetables in his the greenhouse, mom should keep repairing the trucks in her the workshop (or vice versa, no matter). Distracting them to be a wannabe-teachah is insane, that's not Earth.

The only reasonable option for the Martian and other colonies is a boarding school. At least for the full daytime, but in fact it will quickly turn into a "family weekend" mode.
Also this solves the problem of obedience (and of the clothes uniform assortment). 
A few but professional personnel upbrings the children cadets from babysitting to the Martian military civil oath, teaches them to be educated, sporty, and love the Martian leader(s) (why not...) and love the Martian leader(s).

Though this has a side effect: the mentors will become closer relatives than parents.
But this in case solves another problem: fertility. As parents get less significant than mentors, it doesn't matter who  are the cadet's parents.
So, while the next-door Martians have less than one child per family, the specially trained and cared healthy birth specialists are giving births to child by child in a comfortable clinics, so the average planetary fertility rate exceeds 3.

This in turn makes the boarding school academy the only option for Mars at all.
(See Logan's Run for details.)

16 hours ago, Cassel said:

This is because such a base requires redundancy, so everyone will have to train their child so that it can operate for example hydroponics farm as soon as possible and replace the parent in case of something happens.
...
so children will be taught discipline and that they will inherit the social role of their parents in the future.

This is absolutely unappropriate. A good specialist is not necessary a good teacher. A child of a good specialist is not necessary a good specialist.
Only the Academy should decide how to use the grown cadet. Mom Mentor knows best.
See Fallout 3 for details.

16 hours ago, Cassel said:

Such jobs like a poet or singer will also be a waste of resources,

This idea appears every century. Will fail as always. Somebody should entertain and inspire.

16 hours ago, Cassel said:

Feudalism has given everyone a job,

Indeed?

16 hours ago, Cassel said:

a position in society and a roof over their heads.

or at least a branch with a rope.

16 hours ago, Cassel said:

but the peasants did not need credits to have an apartment

The peasants were feudal's private tools to plow the land and provide him with goods.
Their "apartments" were sheds for those tools. Useless tools are useless. 

16 hours ago, Cassel said:

Today there are so many dangerous objects in the house

Yes, gas light, candles, wood stoves, horse-driven carriages, and so on.

16 hours ago, Cassel said:

Wild West was not created by aristocrats

Wild West was a rural periphery of the expanding industrial civilization.
They were robbing banks with federal money using revolvers and dynamite, then jumping into a train and getting away by railroad. Then the sheriff sent a telegram and printed their portraits on a fabric-made paper. They could read about that in newspapers sitting in a cabaret and spending that money.

Nothing of that could be possible before the industrial revolution.

16 hours ago, Cassel said:

As you can see the self-sufficient base on Mars is not only a problem of technology, but also a complete lifestyle remodeling. For this I would also add questions about the economic system, ownership and who will make decisions, rather, there will be no time to vote in critical situations, but those are issues for another thread.

That's all simple but could cause a political discussion, so would kill the thread.

Edited October 10, 2018 by kerbiloid

[tater]

5 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

In NIven's books they disassemble them for organs.

Jaywalking? Off to the organ banks!