Landind on EVE and return suggestions

[Siska]

Hello, 

well, i have tried a couple of times to land ond eve and return.

 

Thing is that my science level is not high enough to have "dart" liquid engines available, which i saw on all of the Eve lander deigns.

 

Is it possible to make a lander that is capable of leaving the surface of Eve and return to orbit without "dart" engines?

 

Do you have any designs to share, to see the lander and mothershipo capable of reaching, landing on Eve and then return to Kerbal?

 

best regards

[Zhetaan]

4 hours ago, Siska said:

Is it possible to make a lander that is capable of leaving the surface of Eve and return to orbit without "dart" engines?

Yes, it's possible.  The Mammoth and Vector are both good choices and they unlock from a different science node than the Dart.

However, the key to returning from Eve is only partially engine power.  It is also important to ensure that your vessel is as low-drag as possible.  There are Dart-less designs (here's an example) (here's a more recent example), and there are a couple of other ways to do it.  A lot of sea-level Eve return craft look alike because Eve puts so many constraints on getting back to orbit that there are fewer ways to do it with the available parts.  However, there is still a lot of room for creativity and there are other tricks you can use:  I recall one Eve sea-level return challenge where the person landed on the tallest mountain on Eve and took a glider to sea level to get science (the proof of reaching sea level was a surface sample from the sea).  Then it was a matter of roving back up the mountain to the vessel to take off; this was a good idea because taking off from the mountain saved a few tonnes of fuel and boosters.

[Laie]

8 hours ago, Siska said:

Is it possible to make a lander that is capable of leaving the surface of Eve and return to orbit without "dart" engines?

Yes. For quick orientation, here's an ISP chart from sea level to 30km:

Note that TWR is also important. The Twin-Boar vastly outperforms the Mainsail simply by means of it's high TWR. For the same reason, a single 4-ton Vector will outperform four 1-ton Aerospikes from the ground up, despite it's worse ISP.

But if you have neither Vector nor Aerospike, it's entirely possible to build a lander from other 1st stage engines. The rocket will be less efficient and hence much bigger/heavier than one built from high-end engines, though, and the rocket to carry it from Kerbin to Eve will have to be bigger still. I strongly recommend to at least unlock ISRU so you can land a mostly empty vessel, and refuel on the surface of Eve.

Edited March 11, 2019 by Laie

[Siska]

Quote

29 minutes ago, Laie said:

But if you have neither Vector nor Aerospike, it's entirely possible to build a lander from other 1st stage engines. The rocket will be less efficient and hence much bigger/heavier than one built from high-end engines, though. The rocket to carry your lander/lifter from Kerbin to Eve will have to be even bigger and heavier. I strongly recommend to at least unlock ISRU so you can land a mostly empty vessel, and refuel on the surface of Eve.

 

So you thnik mining on Eve is the way to go? but that would mean  hell of a construction there just to get fuel in some decent time.

isn't that even harder to bring to Eve? Or you would do it separately, to land a miner and then lander which refuels on miner?

[Foxster]

Definitely don't need aerospikes but if you haven't fleshed out the tech tree then there might but some other bits that will make it harder to orbit without. 

If you can get to Eve orbit then why not do Gilly first and maybe Ike too. They are pretty easy in comparison and will really fill the tech tree if you do all the science you can. 

[Laie]

4 hours ago, Siska said:

isn't that even harder to bring to Eve? Or you would do it separately, to land a miner and then lander which refuels on miner?

ISRU is really easy once you know how it works. The whole equipment comes at well under 10 tons (under 3t, if you want to) and should be left on the surface.

I've got a low-tech ISRU lander up my sleeve and am afraid to show it, for fear of spoiling your fun. But to illustrate ISRU, look at this:

Drill, converter, power source, heat sinks. That's all there is to it. The whole rocket was refueled in a matter of 3-5 Eve days. There's a lot that's "wrong" in this picture, I'm using a large converter even though the small one (+ timewarp) would do just as well, I'm actually lifting it from the surface -- there's reasons which I'm not going to get into. The sole purpose of this picture is to show you that a "refinery" doesn't need to be a sprawling surface installation.

[Siska]

12 hours ago, Laie said:

I've got a low-tech ISRU lander up my sleeve and am afraid to show it, for fear of spoiling your fun. But to illustrate ISRU, look at this:

Quite big.

 

can you show us the mothership? or this one goes all the way back to Kerbin?

[Laie]

5 hours ago, Siska said:

Quite big.
can you show us the mothership? or this one goes all the way back to Kerbin?

It was supposed to carry 30t of ore to Gilly, for a challenge. There's no mothership, only a fuel tank in orbit to dock with. Eventually the part above the ore tanks returned home from Gilly - that's what the two small engines are there for.

I guess it has little bearing on what you're trying to do -- I assume you simply want to bring back a single person from the surface, or maybe a team of three.

[OhioBob]

Other than the Dart, none of the stock engines are properly designed for Eve.  That's one of the things that makes Eve so difficult... you're forced to use the wrong tools for the job.  Some of the stock engines allow you to improvise, but it kind of like driving in a nail with a wrench rather than a hammer.  If you want to use a hammer, you might consider this:

Some people probably consider it cheating, but I just consider it engineering the correct tool for the job.  It's simply making a trade off to get a better performance where you need, by sacrificing performance where you don't.

 

[Foxster]

50 minutes ago, OhioBob said:

Other than the Dart, none of the stock engines are properly designed for Eve.  That's one of the things that makes Eve so difficult... you're forced to use the wrong tools for the job.  Some of the stock engines allow you to improvise, but it kind of like driving in a nail with a wrench rather than a hammer.  If you want to use a hammer, you might consider this:

Some people probably consider it cheating, but I just consider it engineering the correct tool for the job.  It's simply making a trade off to get a better performance where you need, by sacrificing performance where you don't.

 

I do understand what you mean but personally I find the limitation of the stock parts adds to the challenge and the fun. 

Eve-return is kinda the end-game experience for KSP and it takes something away from that to use easier engines. 

[OhioBob]

3 hours ago, Foxster said:

I do understand what you mean but personally I find the limitation of the stock parts adds to the challenge and the fun. 

Eve-return is kinda the end-game experience for KSP and it takes something away from that to use easier engines. 

I've only taken off from Eve a couple times, and it was using the stock engines.  I've never actually used Eve Optimized Engines other than in testing.  I just think it's kind of weird that Squad gave us Eve but never gave us any proper engines for getting off of it.

[Siska]

Well i finally made it.

this is the lander

https://imgur.com/a/7UelwUW

i used mod you see just for testing of the lander. i do not use any mods or whatever otherwise.

It is quite harsh to get to and take off from eve, but this lander is actually very stable and aerodynamic.

When i returned to orbit i had a lot of fuel left in mothership. Actually i made it to Kerbal with half tank of fuel left.

 

 

[eagle92lightning]

Let me give a suggestion I was given a very long time ago...

http://via Imgflip Meme Generator

On 3/12/2019 at 7:39 PM, OhioBob said:

I just think it's kind of weird that Squad gave us Eve but never gave us any proper engines for getting off of it.

Thats part of the challenge, to get down onto and back off of the surface of a planet the likes that Kerbalkind had never seen.

Edited May 30, 2019 by eagle92lightning