[WIP] Kerbal Joint Reinforcement - Next

[Richmountain112]

When I installed this on 1.12.3, it didn't load. 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Richmountain112

[Rudolf Meier]

1 minute ago, Richmountain112 said:

When I installed this on 1.12.3, it didn't load. 

How did you detect that?

[Richmountain112]

Error message during startup saying "Incompatible Mod Detected!"

Edited May 17, 2023 by Richmountain112

[Rudolf Meier]

do you have more information? ...some useful logs? screenshots? file versions? or an idea with what it could be incompatible?

[Richmountain112]

It says it was meant for 1.4.3. Was it?

[Rudolf Meier]

2 minutes ago, Richmountain112 said:

It says it was meant for 1.4.3. Was it?

not at all... the latest version is for 1.12.0 or later

https://github.com/meirumeiru/Kerbal-Joint-Reinforcement/releases/tag/v4.2.24

[Rudolf Meier]

v4.2.26 is online (fixes problems with orbital construction mode)

[Rudolf Meier]

v4.2.27 is online (fixes a small problem in the version with gui)

[ngx]

Hello, how much is "reinforce inversions" option important? It does very weird stuff with some of my rockets (especially when using TT-70 decoupler) but it is hard for me to replicate. Usually it occurs on rockets built before new KJR. Basically, when enabled, it dislocates some joints and makes the vessel fall apart. It occurs either in flight after staging or fairing deployment, or also when disabling and re-enabling the option on launchpad (I didn't get further in testing).
Can I run into some problems when I have the option disabled?
Also, do you plan to keep IR compatibility with previous version (4.2.x) of KJR? I'd rather keep with that one.

[Rudolf Meier]

4 hours ago, ngx said:

Hello, how much is "reinforce inversions" option important? It does very weird stuff with some of my rockets (especially when using TT-70 decoupler) but it is hard for me to replicate. Usually it occurs on rockets built before new KJR. Basically, when enabled, it dislocates some joints and makes the vessel fall apart. It occurs either in flight after staging or fairing deployment, or also when disabling and re-enabling the option on launchpad (I didn't get further in testing).
Can I run into some problems when I have the option disabled?
Also, do you plan to keep IR compatibility with previous version (4.2.x) of KJR? I'd rather keep with that one.

well... maybe I should first explain what "reinforce" means: In the game, there are joints which are not as strong as they should be. This leads to (and that's surprising to many) rubbery or overflexible joints. But those joints don't break (usually). Now, what the reinforcement tries to do is, that it makes the joints realistically stable. And this sometimes means, that a reinforced joint does now break. Which means, that the part which forms the connection is not strong enough.

Of course, there could still be a problem or a bug with the algorithm... but it is also possible, that the part in the middle (which is breaking) is not strong enough.

Now, what does the "reinforce inversions" do. It does try to find joints witch will likely behave like wet spaghetti. And this is done by searching configurations in the ship which tend to behave like this. And then it tries to fix those by adding a joint which should simulate what the intention of the rocket builder was (e.g. if you have 2 heavy tanks and a light decoupler in the middle which is intended to be strong, then the systems adds a joint with a given strength between the tanks directly... but: if the strength of the decoupler is low (that's a property of the part), then this newly created joint will also be not too strong... and when this then breaks, the original joint will break as well)).

I hope this helps to find out if there is a problem with KJR or if there's something else going on...

[ngx]

Thanks for explanation.
The problem in my case is, that not only decouplers fall apart, also some totally unrelated parts go off. In example, after re-enabling "reinforce inversions", RCS thruster parts from upper stage (two stages ahead of current stage) fell off. Or, decouplers of first stage fall apart after manual deployment (not decoupling!) of last stage fairing.
Indeed, I do have rockets that cannot hold together without KJR. But they work fine with KJR NEXT not using "reinforce inversions" or with previous version of KJR.

Also, when I have "reinforce inversions" enabled and I launch the rocket (from VAB to launchpad), it holds together fine. Then I disable "reinforce inversions" (pressing apply), nothing changes (in fact, now i could fly the rocket without any problems). THEN, still on launchpad, I re-enable "reinforce inversions" option and after pressing "apply" rocket falls apart (along with RCS thrusters falling off). In testing, I also used very simple vessel, just two big tanks on sides of center big tank coupled with TT-70. It holds together fine even without KJR at all (not in GameData). Yet, re-enabling "reinforce inversions" breaks it in similar way as described above.

Simply put, all problems I encounter are somewhat related to "reinforce inversions" only. That is why I asked how much I need that option. Using KJR is inevitable for me, but I'd use it without "reinforce inversions", or I'd be fine with previous version (4.1.x) as it works fine. I just need to know whether future versions of IR will not work with new KJR version (4.2.x) only. Btw, did KJR ver. 4.1.x use some sort of "reinforce inversions" too, or is it brand new feature?

[Rudolf Meier]

19 minutes ago, ngx said:

In testing, I also used very simple vessel, just two big tanks on sides of center big tank coupled with TT-70. It holds together fine even without KJR at all (not in GameData). Yet, re-enabling "reinforce inversions" breaks it in similar way as described above.

I will try this and see what I can find out.

21 minutes ago, ngx said:

Simply put, all problems I encounter are somewhat related to "reinforce inversions" only. That is why I asked how much I need that option. Using KJR is inevitable for me, but I'd use it without "reinforce inversions", or I'd be fine with previous version (4.1.x) as it works fine. I just need to know whether future versions of IR will not work with new KJR version (4.2.x) only. Btw, did KJR ver. 4.1.x use some sort of "reinforce inversions" too, or is it brand new feature?

It is a new feature. The idea was to stop making everything just super rigid, but to add realism.

But, you don't have to use it. You can use the other modes (extra joints) without the inversion option. This will then act like old versions.

IR Next is not directly dependent on KJR Next. IRn and KJRn simply follow standard rules of KSP. They both work with every other mod doing this.

[ngx]

4 hours ago, Rudolf Meier said:

It is a new feature. The idea was to stop making everything just super rigid, but to add realism.

I understand. I'd like to have joints as much realistic as possible, so IF there is some bug, I hope you'll find and kill it. Things which indicates to me that there might be something not originally intended are those independent parts coming off, or unrelated actions causing ship falling apart (another example: staging first stage of solid boosters break decouplers of second stage, which were fine until then).
Anyway, thank you for both KJR and IR, they are great mods, absolute must have for me.

[Rudolf Meier]

I have updated the first page and added a new description of the new settings and how to use the new version.

It is important to select a mode that fits your needs. Some want the "realistic" approach (those who thought old KJR was cheating) and some want the "very stable" approach who simply want to make every ship fly.

Many reports about problems that I received in the last weeks are not really related to bugs or errors but in most cases that the settings need to be set differently.

Other problems come from the fact, that autostruts are used together with KJR Next. This is not recommended (but it is tolerable for the wheels and landing legs, where you cannot turn it off).

I also want to point out, that the version with GUI is mainly meant for debugging (your ships or constructions). The idea is, to see what's going on, not to modify the settings during normal gameplay.

An important thing to notice is, that whenever you modify the settings in flight (in the normal version or in the GUI version) this can destroy your ships. You should only modify the settings either during time warp or right before loading a quicksave.