Kerbal Joint Reinforcement - Next

[Rudolf Meier]

On 7/3/2023 at 1:14 AM, shelshok said:

Just a note that it still seems to be happening some of the time. Same issue. Just KJRN installed, and launching the stock Dynawing. Fuel tank breaks off sometimes when the boosters are decoupled after they shut down. Not always.

thanks... I will try to find out why it still happens...

[Rudolf Meier]

On 7/3/2023 at 9:45 AM, Maelstrom Vortex said:

KJR appears to make reinforcement joints to moving parts and landing gear that can be destructive.

Well... I don't think so... at least that's not how it is designed. While it is true that it does create struts to landing gears, it is never adding struts to moving parts (if they are not locked). But that's what it should do and this works just fine. (if you can show me where it doesn't behave like this, then this could be a bug... but currently I don't know of such a bug).

On 7/3/2023 at 9:45 AM, Maelstrom Vortex said:

So does autostrut unmodded.

Autostruts are indeed a problem. Because landing gears and legs do always create an AutoStrut to the heaviest part and you cannot turn this off. Those AutoStruts will also be created, when you have a moving (robotic) part in between (also if you play with no mods at all... this problem exists in the stock game as well!).

On 7/3/2023 at 9:45 AM, Maelstrom Vortex said:

Since KRJ doesn't recognize any struts on those parts, it doesn't have anything to strengthen and so does not cause a problem. Nor does it automatically strut them, since it's additional joints are disbaled.

That's not how it works. KJR does reinforce "attach"-joints. But does not touch autostrut joints.

On 7/3/2023 at 9:45 AM, Maelstrom Vortex said:

So I find that some elements of KRJ next are destructive.. as their automatic strut addition settings do not consider part types.

KJR is aware of the types of the part and is doing what it does accordingly.

 

Sorry to say that, but analyzing your data I didn't find any evidence for a bug in KJR.

 

----

 

On 7/3/2023 at 1:14 AM, shelshok said:

Just a note that it still seems to be happening some of the time. Same issue. Just KJRN installed, and launching the stock Dynawing. Fuel tank breaks off sometimes when the boosters are decoupled after they shut down. Not always.

Can you tell me what settings for KJR you use? Or how I can reproduce it? What trajectory do you fly when it happens?

Edited August 24, 2023 by Rudolf Meier

[Natso]

My boat was hit by a missile and it broke in half, but the boat is still running?

[Rudolf Meier]

v4.2.26 is online (fixes problems with orbital construction mode)

[Maelstrom Vortex]

On 8/24/2023 at 11:08 AM, Rudolf Meier said:

Well... I don't think so... at least that's not how it is designed. While it is true that it does create struts to landing gears, it is never adding struts to moving parts (if they are not locked). But that's what it should do and this works just fine. (if you can show me where it doesn't behave like this, then this could be a bug... but currently I don't know of such a bug).

I viewed it during my twitch campaign in the early days. I had to set up a specific config to make KJR Next not break robotic parts. Basically, I have turned off all additional struts, and only have strength enhancing of attachment points turned on.
 

On 8/24/2023 at 11:08 AM, Rudolf Meier said:

Autostruts are indeed a problem. Because landing gears and legs do always create an AutoStrut to the heaviest part and you cannot turn this off. Those AutoStruts will also be created, when you have a moving (robotic) part in between (also if you play with no mods at all... this problem exists in the stock game as well!).

I'm aware.. and there is a mod that fixes the auto-struting heavy. It's called, "Full Auto Strut" and I have it too operating on minimal configs with all base game autostruts (yes even the landing gear) set to grandparent part only. I have verified in game this mod successfully keeps the part in grandparent mode on the runway, after reloads, and in scenes. Since I added it and set the default to grandparent on all my builds, spontaneous destruction of docked craft regardless of comparable component size or weight has ended.  strongly recommend it to everyone still playing ksp as a fix for the base game.

 

On 8/24/2023 at 11:08 AM, Rudolf Meier said:

That's not how it works. KJR does reinforce "attach"-joints. But does not touch autostrut joints.

KJR is aware of the types of the part and is doing what it does accordingly.

I used my terminology a bit too loosely, the attach joints is what I was talking about. I will try not to conflate the two. I use the option to strengthen those.

I want you to know I am using your Dev mode so I can toggle strut views on the runway.

HOWEVER, you say it doesn't touch autostruts, and that is accurate, but KJR Next DOES, have the option to add additional reinforcement struts which from what I can tell behave like the regular strutting from autostrut. (You can even toggle through the display of the different strut types which is awesome, btw, love it on the GUI version.) Those additional joints were as problematic as autostrut for me and the ability to predict how they would connect wasn't always assured. I would turn this on multiple times on the exact same craft without any modifications to the craft on a runway, and it would not always connect in the same way. I suspect this is due to it linking to robotic joints that may be flexing during render. I turned those to 0. With grandparent only connections turned on this requires me to do a bit more manual strutting with the actual strut part to ensure rigidity and no flex, but it prevents spontaneous destruction by the KJR Next native additives which do not appear to obey the grandparent only rule I use and so are inclined to make non-ideal connections. Yes, I know not everyone wants to use grandparent only, my only real complaint is the connections to moving parts or parts connected to them resulting in lock down or breakage.

I am prone to making complex craft with payloads that are their own distinct vehicles  and with robotic arms that deploy the vehicles. Which is why I may be more prone to this behavior.
 

On 8/24/2023 at 11:08 AM, Rudolf Meier said:

Sorry to say that, but analyzing your data I didn't find any evidence for a bug in KJ

Can you tell me what settings for KJR you use? Or how I can reproduce it? What trajectory do you fly when it happens?

I can in fact show you the settings that I use that work. I will show you the ones that also do not work.  Trajectory does not matter. Render/physics load and change of direction do. I would have to go back a few months and watch my twitch vids to illustrate the spontaneous disassembly (not explosive, just parts fall off). But the explosions are entirely random when they happen or when I use robotic pieces.. which was rare at the start and quickly fixed so finding that exact point would be hard. I do know that they did strut to robotics and it would have one of two effects. The part would be entirely rigid or immobile, or it would break the craft on use/warp. This was true with the base game robotics components. I wish I had more info on this for you, but the ones I can tell you specifically were involved were the hinges, alligator clip and the actuator short joints.

Settings that work:



Settings that tend not to work:

The central green line is a piston. You can see three yellow lines connecting it to parts that are part of its payload and should not be. One from the next part in the central body of the craft. If that piston extended it would put pressure, based on the struts strength, on those other components on the other end, or at least that is my understanding or until it broke. 


 
With only base level ksp struting/attachment points We only get the parts linked to the piston that are part of its specific payload and the piston to the hull which should be as it is intended. When this happens on a hinge, or even more complexly, a hinge on a rotator connected to a piston, as part of a robotic arm it's very destructive (the yellow secondary joints, not the base game joints).

Sorry for the long duration to reply, but since I fixed this behavior with my own options selections by not using some features of KJR I hadn't been back to the forums in a bit.

Anyway if you use autostrut everything set to grandparent only, then do not use any KJR next additional reinforcement say for anything other than strengthening the attachment points, the game becomes super stable. Manual struts though are needed to make up when you have long side-segments to craft to keep them from wobbling/colliding. It is like early-day ksp again. 

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Engineer Gaming]

idk whats causing this but after installing KJR i lost remove from symetry, same vessel interaction and aim camera. is this a setting or is there a dependacy im not aware of (i only have KJR and no other mod relating to KJR)

(edit): when i uninstall KJR autostrut and all the features are still gone

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Engineer Gaming

[Rudolf Meier]

KJR Next is not just an other "KJR continuation", but a completely different development which does not just "add a bunch of extra joints", but tries just to fix the problems of the game engine used by KSP with a minimal number of modifications and extra joints on the vessel. This seems to be unknown to many players. (It is worth to read the first page of this thread again, because it contains new information.) And now with the release of KSP2 "For Science!" this topic is being discussed a lot again and so I wanted to link a video of a demonstration that I did recently.

 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Rudolf Meier

[Rudolf Meier]

v4.2.27 is online (fixes a small problem in the version with gui)

[Estelyen]

Very weird issue that I'm having:

I get all my mods through CKAN. I've been running KSP 1.12.4 basically since forever for mod compatibility reasons. Last week, I realized that some of my mods had updates available (hadn't checked in a very long time). So I updated about a dozen mods. I don't really remember if KJR-N was among them, but seeing as the last update before 4.2.27 was only at the end of September, I guess it must have been. 

When I launched a big rocket for the first time since my "great mod update", it started to wobble horribly, as if I didn't have KJR-N at all. I checked, CKAN says it's still enabled. Then I saw the new update to 4.2.27 had just arrived and did another update. However, the problem remains. CKAN says it's activated but it doesn't do anything to fix my rockets anymore. No, I'm not using any vanilla auto-strut settings.

Is there anything I can do to check whether the game actually recognizes the mod? Maybe it's a conflict with some other mod I use? Maybe the latest versions of KJR-N are not really working with KSP 1.12.4?

 

EDIT: I just tried downgrading KJR-N through some earlier versions and the wobble stopped when I downgraded to 4.1.19. So I guess something in the 4.2.23 update prevents it from being compatible, either with KSP 1.12.4 or with one of my other mods. Ah well, I'll just use that version then. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Estelyen

[Rudolf Meier]

3 hours ago, Estelyen said:

I just tried downgrading KJR-N through some earlier versions and the wobble stopped when I downgraded to 4.1.19. So I guess something in the 4.2.23 update prevents it from being compatible, either with KSP 1.12.4 or with one of my other mods. Ah well, I'll just use that version then. 

This should not be the case. But I hear that sometimes from people after they updated the mod. I could imagine a conflict with older files or settings. Maybe it would make a difference, when you first delete the KJR directory manually before you reinstall the mod?

And check the settings: Go to the difficulty menu then and select the strengts you want the mod to provide.

(It can provide a new mode with "game engine error fix only", a mode with additional light helper joints and 2 strong modes which act like older KJRs)

Edited December 31, 2023 by Rudolf Meier

[Estelyen]

1 hour ago, Rudolf Meier said:

This should not be the case. But I hear that sometimes from people after they updated the mod. I could imagine a conflict with older files or settings. Maybe it would make a difference, when you first delete the KJR directory manually before you reinstall the mod?

And check the settings: Go to the difficulty menu then and select the strengts you want the mod to provide.

Did a complete reinstall and adjusted the settings. When I put the Extra Joint Level slider at its maximum, it stopped all the wobble, even in the lates version. I can't remember if I ever went into KJR-Ns settings before, but I guess I must have back in the day when I first installed it. And the update then probably reset my settings. 

Anyway, it's working now, thanks!

[Rudolf Meier]

17 minutes ago, Estelyen said:

... the update then probably reset my settings.

The settings are new. They did not exist like that before.

The default settings are on a level which should be enough for ships that could exist in reality. But it could be, that huge kerbal constructions need much more struts. And because KJR did provide a rigidification that worked for such cases, many seem to have started to think of this as the "normal" case.

With the new version of KJR Next, you have to decide now which type of reinforcement you want.

[Rudolf Meier]

I have updated the first page and added a new description of the new settings and how to use the new version.

It is important to select a mode that fits your needs. Some want the "realistic" approach (those who thought old KJR was cheating) and some want the "very stable" approach who simply want to make every ship fly.

Many reports about problems that I received in the last weeks are not really related to bugs or errors but in most cases that the settings need to be set differently.

Other problems come from the fact, that autostruts are used together with KJR Next. This is not recommended (but it is tolerable for the wheels and landing legs, where you cannot turn it off).

I also want to point out, that the version with GUI is mainly meant for debugging (your ships or constructions). The idea is, to see what's going on, not to modify the settings during normal gameplay.

An important thing to notice is, that whenever you modify the settings in flight (in the normal version or in the GUI version) this can destroy your ships. You should only modify the settings either during time warp or right before loading a quicksave.