[1.3.1] Ferram Aerospace Research: v0.15.9.1 "Liepmann" 4/2/18

[White Owl]

I like the GUI improvements this time around.

[AndreyATGB]

@Sauron As other have said, CoM is supposed to be in front of CoL and at the same time your center of mass should be both in the middle of the plane (length wise) and right on the fuel tanks middle. This way, once you run it dry the CoM and CoL remain relatively constant. It becomes a huge problem when you start dealing with large planes that burn a lot of fuel.

[ferram4]

@Tiron: Yeah, that would be the spiral mode. Most of the time pilots subconsciously fix that, so a lot of planes in real life have slightly unstable spiral modes. It's easier to control a slightly unstable non-oscillating motion than an unstable oscillating motion (or even a stable one).

@Sauron: Move the wings back. Like everyone else is saying.

@jstnj: The game crashed. As in, actually crashed to desktop. What did you do just before that happened, and what does the error.log that should have been created from the crash say? If it has something, something, AccessViolation in there, then you ran out of memory. If that's the case, there's nothing much I can do, since if adding a few parts to the ship is enough to crash the game you're running right on the edge of having too many mods.

[Aedile]

Techniques question: this SSTO is having some nasty issues around mach 1--uncontrollable pitch from the supersonic effects. How to correct? And a related question: any tips on how to handle vairly low-lift spaceplanes on landing approaches?

http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/TalkingHat/asfasdasfdasfd.jpg

http://i882.photobucket.com/albums/ac29/TalkingHat/asfafsdfads.jpg

Without understanding much about planes, but basicly CoL in front of CoM is for slow planes with big wings, and lower trust.

Also pay attention to the CoM CoL and CoT on the vertical. I don't know if FAR simulation takes trust into account, but I have managed to build planes which behave pretty differently depending on your trust to lift ratio.

[Tiron]

@Tiron: Yeah, that would be the spiral mode. Most of the time pilots subconsciously fix that, so a lot of planes in real life have slightly unstable spiral modes. It's easier to control a slightly unstable non-oscillating motion than an unstable oscillating motion (or even a stable one).

@Sauron: Move the wings back. Like everyone else is saying.

@jstnj: The game crashed. As in, actually crashed to desktop. What did you do just before that happened, and what does the error.log that should have been created from the crash say? If it has something, something, AccessViolation in there, then you ran out of memory. If that's the case, there's nothing much I can do, since if adding a few parts to the ship is enough to crash the game you're running right on the edge of having too many mods.

@Ferram4: well what you were saying about it being nastier in KSP, it wasn't 'unconsciously' correctable, unless maybe you could feel it when it was incipient and fix it or something. So far it's only manifested while trying to turn as hard as possible over an extended period on Duna, and it wasn't a huge problem then.

@Sauron: He's right. Having CoM behind CoL creates extreme instability, which is what you're seeing on der graph there. Having the two lined up also creates a fair amount of instability. You want CoM ahead of CoL, but barely (the closer it is, the more maneuverable you'll be.) My experience with the 'falling out from Mach Tuck' issue was that it generally seemed to primarily be the result of not having enough lift for the weight of the plane. At least on the stuff I design.

@jstnj: If it is in fact said Access Violation, try using Active Texture Management if you're not already. The 'basic' version has dropped my memory usage considerably, without any reduction in quality that I've noticed.

[DaMichel]

Apparently i stumbled across a real issue now

[illectro]

I enjoyed watching aircraft fail so I made a compilation....

[smunisto]

I thought this is an issue with the fan-FAR configs for Porkjet's pack. And I thought just a wing that is attached to a part that is after the cargo bay, starting from the root part, gets shielded. Apparently it's set to shielded permanently if you touch it to an open cargo bay. So the issue is not with B9's cfg's either. Guess it's FAR.

[jstnj]

I enjoyed watching aircraft fail so I made a compilation....

You made Jeb proud. Thanks for that Scott.

Seeing all these planes disintegrate made me think: I'm seeing all these craft come apart and then fly along with just the leverage of the capsule... is it possible to remove the ability to control the craft once its control surfaces have been disconnected?

Edited April 30, 2014 by jstnj

[undercoveryankee]

You made Jeb proud. Thanks for that Scott.

Seeing all these planes disintegrate made me think: I'm seeing all these craft come apart and then fly along with just the leverage of the capsule... is it possible to remove the ability to control the craft once its control surfaces have been disconnected?

That's a symptom of the unrealistically powerful reaction wheels that all of your cockpits have. More realistic to just nerf the reaction wheels across the board than to try to hack together special behavior in atmosphere.

[Amaroq]

Well you could remove the reaction wheels from the capsule, if you wanted.

@ferram4, beautiful work on this, my first plane disintegration was amazing (luckily the pilot made it home safe via parachute) -- and now I've got the great fun of trying to nurse home an injured plane which is missing three of the six primary control surfaces. I can get it almost level at 92m/s, but even compensating with fuel balance by pumping fuel to the offset hasn't quite removed the list ...

[AndreyATGB]

You made Jeb proud. Thanks for that Scott.

Seeing all these planes disintegrate made me think: I'm seeing all these craft come apart and then fly along with just the leverage of the capsule... is it possible to remove the ability to control the craft once its control surfaces have been disconnected?

Why would you want that? The pods can very well generate enough lift to fly along. The problem is SAS not really the lack of lift, so disable SAS is what I'm trying to say I suppose.

[R0cketC0der]

You made Jeb proud. Thanks for that Scott.

Seeing all these planes disintegrate made me think: I'm seeing all these craft come apart and then fly along with just the leverage of the capsule... is it possible to remove the ability to control the craft once its control surfaces have been disconnected?

If you want to fly an airplane realistically, turn any reaction wheels in it of.

[jstnj]

Why would you want that? The pods can very well generate enough lift to fly along. The problem is SAS not really the lack of lift, so disable SAS is what I'm trying to say I suppose.

A pod doesn't generate lift, it can only steer the propulsion that is pushing it along. I'm asking if it is possible to disable that steering ability that comes from the reaction wheel torque, since it is less-than-realistic from a physics standpoint.

I may be wrong, but even with SAS off...a Mk1 pod stlil has torque no?

[NathanKell]

Anything and everything generates lift, including pods. It all depends on angle of attack.

[Sage]

If you use module manager you can do something like this:

@PART[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleReactionWheel]]
{
@MODULE[ModuleReactionWheel]
{
@PitchTorque *= 0.01
@YawTorque *= 0.01
@RollTorque *= 0.01
}
}

mind that it will nerf any reaction wheel in the game, so maybe you want to set up some exceptions.

[NathanKell]

HAS[@MODULE[ModuleReactionWheel],@MODULE[ModuleCommand]]

That will restrict it to command pods / probes only.

[jstnj]

Anything and everything generates lift, including pods. It all depends on angle of attack.

I was speaking in terms type of controllable lift, from control surfaces like canards, wings, rudders, etc. : http://quest.nasa.gov/aero/teachers/images/pic4.gif, but you're not wrong. I just should have explained what i meant better.

[jstnj]

HAS[@MODULE[ModuleReactionWheel],@MODULE[ModuleCommand]]

That will restrict it to command pods / probes only.

Awesome. Thanks!

[R0cketC0der]

Anything and everything generates lift, including pods. It all depends on angle of attack.

[nitpick]actually perfect spheres will never generate any lift[/nitpick]

[illectro]

[nitpick]actually perfect spheres will never generate any lift[/nitpick]

Unless they're large enough that the atmospheric density changes measurably from top to bottom.

[undercoveryankee]

Unless they're large enough that the atmospheric density changes measurably from top to bottom.

Or if they're spinning in the right direction?

[ferram4]

@illectro: Video added to the OP, because it's fun.

@DaMichel: Noted, confirmed and fixed.

@R0cketC0der: [More nitpicking]Technically, a sphere will produce lift due to vortex shedding over the back surface, and this is relatively unaffected by surface finish. The lift just won't be in any easily predictable direction, hence why knuckleballs are a pain to hit[/nitpicking]

So, version 0.13.3 is out, including a Scott Manley-requested feature, the ability to change things in-game via a GUI. It's in the space center, pretty much every setting available can be fixed. Also, includes fix to DaMichel's issue. Also includes a fix to atm composition, which the changeover to ConfigNodes for 0.13.2 broke. And tweaks to the default control surface aero-failure strengths.

[Endersmens]

I did search the thread and didn't find anything about this, so I assume its safe to ask. Does anybody know of a config to make KSO work with FAR?

[Green Skull]

I did search the thread and didn't find anything about this, so I assume its safe to ask. Does anybody know of a config to make KSO work with FAR?

I have been using FAR and the KSO for a long time. I've personally never had a problem. I have even managed a full on DRE / FAR re-entry, landing at KSC on the runway carrying a retrieved satellite without changing a single setting.

This is in my opinion the best FAR version yet Ferram. Thank you for making planes fun! I love the way ships break apart! I even saw a jettisoned stage break apart in the atmosphere on the way back down