Achieving what was previously thought impossible

[king of nowhere]

Quote

history shows that time and time again things 'couldn't be done' and they were done.

Boyan Slat, presenting the first realistic project for cleaning oceans from plastics

 

This is progress. This is what progress is about.

And I got thinking on that quote many times in this community, upon seeing how things that were previously assumed impossible were eventually done, and are now considered commonplace - or, at least, hard but feasible by anyone skilled.

So, I'd like to collect a bunch of achievements that were previously assumed impossible - including quotes from skilled people claiming it was impossible - until someone managed them. As a testament to this community, its members, and their inventiveness.

extremely low-cost interplanetary transfers

with gravity assists you can go places cheap. but to the point of going all the way to Jool with less fuel cost than a normal intercept with Mun?

On 5/25/2021 at 8:16 PM, herbal space program said:

I don't know about in theory, but in actual play I believe the long-standing dV record for just reaching the Jool system was something like 1050 m/s, using a Mun-Eve-Kerbin-Kerbin-Jool route,  and setting up that first Munar assist so the transfers line up is a nightmare.  There's also the matter of the plane change going to Eve, because finding a transfer window exactly  at the nodal point may not even be possible.

 

On 5/25/2021 at 8:28 PM, camacju said:

That's why it's better to eject into a resonant orbit with Kerbin using the Mun assist, instead of trying to time the Eve transfer. Then you can swing by Kerbin again to fine tune your transfer. Just leave Kerbin 11 years before the Eve transfer window and the Mun assists will take care of the rest (including plane changes).

Getting to Jool for about 850 m/s is fairly routine now using multiple Mun gravity assists

 

Eve ssto

A bit harder here to find quotes claiming it's impossible, because it's the kind of thing people generally brag about on youtube. Still, when I asked about it a year ago, some people straight up told me it was impossible. then they deleted their comments after youtube videos disproved them.

Nowadays the "standard" approach - propellers and wings until 15 km, vectors to get out of the atmosphere, nervs to circularize - is widely known.

additionally, someone managed not just to make an ssto, but to make a purely rocket-based ssto (admittedly, it launches from the highest point on eve) with enough payload to return to kerbin on ion engines

kerbalism grand tour

One of the most well-known mods, kerbalism ramps up the difficulty with all manners of realistic inconveniences like life support, malfunctions, radiations. And many people assumed you couldn't do anything too fancy with it.

On 12/17/2020 at 5:25 AM, Gotmachine said:

If your goal is to make self-sustainable bases, yep, it is hopeless. In fact, even doing "basic" manned missions outside of the Kerbin SOI is quite hard.

Kerbalism difficulty balance make what is achievable in KSP roughly in the realm of reality.
I've yet to see proof of a successful manned mission to Jool with Kerbalism. And I believe that there are only a handful of people that can claim a successful mission to Duna.

after the first successful attempt, people interested in the challenge know you can survive parts breaking up with a redundant design and you can survive radiations with a mixture of proper design and careful trajectories. nowadays there are a half dozen "kerbalism grand tours" among the mission reports.

lithobraking from mun orbit

Nobody doubted that it would be possible to come to a full stop from minmus orbit without using rockets, just by slamming into the terrain with some heavy landing gear. Those who tried it and survived generally assumed that the 150 m/s is the top of what landing gear can survive. Not many people would have guessed it would be possible to do it on the Mun, going four times faster...

On 5/9/2021 at 6:57 PM, king of nowhere said:

 i tried to land on minmus from orbit, it took a bit of trial and error but it could be achieved. Then i went for the next bigger body, Bop. that was much harder, in part because of the topography. But I eventually made it, after hitting the ground at 187.1 m/s. Next step would be trying on Ike, but I doubt it's possible.

 

 

I call for everyone to contribute to this list of things that were generally assumed impossible - possibly including quotes from people saying it's impossible - and then being done.

[herbal space program]

Don't make me into Lord Kelvin here. I never claimed it was impossible to get to Jool for less than ~1050 m/s, I just said it had been a long-standing record in actual play, which it was. When I was reminded in that thread that people did eventually take on the challenge of using multiple Munar assists rather than just one to get enough ejection velocity for the first Eve transfer, I immediately admitted it could in fact be done for less.

[camacju]

Some other things that were thought impossible:
-Sea level Eve SSTO
-SSTO to Tylo and back, no ISRU
-SSTO to Jool surface and back

[herbal space program]

36 minutes ago, camacju said:

Some other things that were thought impossible:
-Sea level Eve SSTO
-SSTO to Tylo and back, no ISRU
-SSTO to Jool surface and back

I assume the first of those has been done using props, as it seems eminently doable. Have either of the latter two actually been done? Again, I could envisage somebody doing the Jool thing with props, although that is one heck of a gravity well to climb out of, but Tylo  and back in one stage seems really daunting. Perhaps if you do all your orbital maneuvers using Ions. I never had the patience for that.

[camacju]

12 minutes ago, herbal space program said:

Have either of the latter two actually been done? Again, I could envisage somebody doing the Jool thing with props, although that is one heck of a gravity well to climb out of, but Tylo  and back in one stage seems really daunting.

Both have been done. Lt Duckweed and Stratzenblitz both accomplished the Jool ssto using props, Nervs, and ions.

Bradley Whistance took a SSTO to both Tylo and Laythe with no ISRU. He used a Rapier+Nerv+Wolfhound+ion craft

[Single stage to ocean]

kerbalism grand tour ssto

Somebody has to try this

rss ssto

already done with STOCK PARTs

[moar ssto]

On 6/7/2021 at 7:10 AM, Single stage to ocean said:

kerbalism grand tour ssto

Somebody has to try this

rss ssto

already done with STOCK PARTs

I'v made a fully stock ssto for rss about 2 years ago, then progressively expanded the performance envelope of stock sstos in RSS(with some part merging to reduce lag). For a reference, a conventional wing ssto, with refueling, can do all the planets, dwarf planets and moons except the gas giant themselves and venus, in a single staged round trip(plus the ability to go interstellar to a planet between the size of mars and earth and come back); a magic wing+dlc prop ssto can do a venus round trip without refueling, and ssto from any one of saturn, uranus and neptune(but without the ability to return to earth just by itself) while a magic prop ssto can do do unrefueled round trip to any one, possibly all three in one trip, of saturn, uranus and neptune, or ssto from jupiter sea level(but without the ability to complete round trip just by itself). 

[GoSlash27]

A lot of things that were previously deemed "impossible" literally were impossible at the time. They only became possible due to new parts and changes in the game design.

 Likewise, there were many feats back in the day that can't be accomplished now for the same reasons.

Best,

-Slashy

[camacju]

On 7/5/2021 at 4:04 PM, GoSlash27 said:

Likewise, there were many feats back in the day that can't be accomplished now for the same reasons.

Really? I feel like part nerfs or aero changes have more than been overcome by further optimization techniques.

Are there any good examples of this?

[GoSlash27]

On 8/26/2021 at 1:56 PM, camacju said:

Really? I feel like part nerfs or aero changes have more than been overcome by further optimization techniques.

Are there any good examples of this?

Things that spring to mind that I have personally done:

-Made orbit on ion engines alone with no staging and no infiniglide.

-Made a SSTO spaceplane that could do 3 complete round trips between KSC and LKO without refuelling.

-Made a SSTO with greater than 50% payload fraction (could place a fully fueled copy of itself in LKO).

-Made a combination infiniglide/ kraken drive craft that could make the round trip between KSC and Eve sea level in less than a week with no fuel expended.

-Made a flying car that could SSTO every body in the Kerbol system except for Kerbol, Jool, and Eve.

I'm sure there are other currently impossible feats, but it's been years...

Best,

-Slashy

 

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by GoSlash27

[camacju]

Actually, I think all of these are possible as of KSP 1.11.

Rapier/Nerv craft are quite capable.

1 hour ago, GoSlash27 said:

Made a SSTO spaceplane that could do 3 complete round trips between KSC and LKO without refuelling.

My personal best is eight:

1 hour ago, GoSlash27 said:

Made a SSTO with greater than 50% payload fraction (could place a fully fueled copy of itself in LKO).

I've made a SSTO with 2/3 payload fraction - it can place two fully fuelled copies of itself in LKO. I don't have a link but with a 26.7 ton payload it weighs 40.05 tons at launch, so 13.35 tons of actual plane.

1 hour ago, GoSlash27 said:

Made orbit on ion engines alone with no staging and no infiniglide.

This is trivial with DLC props. If that's not allowed then it's still possible by just spinning the craft.

1 hour ago, GoSlash27 said:

Made a combination infiniglide/ kraken drive craft that could make the round trip between KSC and Eve sea level in less than a week with no fuel expended.

I've actually done this. In 1.11 there are still infiniglide glitches (although they were patched in 1.12) and Kraken drives can have as much acceleration as you want.

1 hour ago, GoSlash27 said:

Made a flying car that could SSTO every body in the Kerbol system except for Kerbol, Jool, and Eve.

I believe "moar ssto" made a craft that could SSTO both Jool and Eve in one mission. Regardless there have been SSTO missions to every body besides Kerbol, which is impossible.

 

Technical KSP players have been able to squeeze a lot more out of KSP's parts than most people think.

[GoSlash27]

51 minutes ago, camacju said:

Actually, I think all of these are possible as of KSP 1.11.

Rapier/Nerv craft are quite capable.

My personal best is eight:

I've made a SSTO with 2/3 payload fraction - it can place two fully fuelled copies of itself in LKO. I don't have a link but with a 26.7 ton payload it weighs 40.05 tons at launch, so 13.35 tons of actual plane.

This is trivial with DLC props. If that's not allowed then it's still possible by just spinning the craft.

I've actually done this. In 1.11 there are still infiniglide glitches (although they were patched in 1.12) and Kraken drives can have as much acceleration as you want.

I believe "moar ssto" made a craft that could SSTO both Jool and Eve in one mission. Regardless there have been SSTO missions to every body besides Kerbol, which is impossible.

 

Technical KSP players have been able to squeeze a lot more out of KSP's parts than most people think.

"I've made a SSTO with 2/3 payload fraction - it can place two fully fuelled copies of itself in LKO. I don't have a link but with a 26.7 ton payload it weighs 40.05 tons at launch, so 13.35 tons of actual plane."

 This was done previously with no wings.

"This is trivial with DLC props. If that's not allowed then it's still possible by just spinning the craft."

No, no add- ons. 100% stock. And there's a big difference between 'can be done' and 'has been done'.

"I've actually done this. In 1.11 there are still infiniglide glitches (although they were patched in 1.12) and Kraken drives can have as much acceleration as you want."

 So you concur that things that were previously possible are no longer possible.

"I believe "moar ssto" made a craft that could SSTO both Jool and Eve in one mission. Regardless there have been SSTO missions to every body besides Kerbol, which is impossible. "

 I believe you are mistaken, since it is impossible to land on Jool.

You're drifting off the point I was originally making, which is that as the game changes, things that were previously impossible become possible (or even commonplace) and vice- versa. Therefore it's invalid to evaluate previous statements outside the context of the version in which they were made.

Best,

-Slashy

 

 

 

[king of nowhere]

I've been wondering why all those high-end optimization goals have to do with atmospheric flight and aerodinamics. especially with this being a game about spaceships.

Then I realized, once you master orbital manuevers, there really isn't much that the stock game can offer. especially if you use isru, you can go everywhere without many problems.

Once a player becomes good enough, the regular career holds no challenge anymore. and then the stock game only holds real challenges in aerodinamics. another option is to grab mods, and yet another option is to leave the game entirely. I wonder what's the percentage of players that pick either options.

It's an interesting tangent, I'll open a thread for it

[camacju]

32 minutes ago, GoSlash27 said:

This was done previously with no wings.

If you want to be pedantic it's also possible to get a 2/3 payload fraction with no wing parts (other than control surfaces, and these can be replaced with reaction wheels for control authority), and this has been done. As for the 50% mark, I feel like a Rapier + Nerv pure "rocket" can come close to that without any hacky aero optimization.

33 minutes ago, GoSlash27 said:

No, no add- ons. 100% stock. And there's a big difference between 'can be done' and 'has been done'.

Stratzenblitz has done it without any DLC parts. So that difference doesn't really matter here.

34 minutes ago, GoSlash27 said:

So you concur that things that were previously possible are no longer possible.

Sorry, I misspoke - the specific infiniglide glitch that I used was patched, but others haven't been.

35 minutes ago, GoSlash27 said:

I believe you are mistaken, since it is impossible to land on Jool.

The standard Jool "landing" is to dip below 0 meters altitude in level flight and then climb back to orbit. While it's not a true landing, it's the closest you're able to get without abusing glitches, and a craft able to do this would also be able to orbit Jool from a true landing had there been a surface. However, there is a way to make a floating Jool platform and then land on it, the game will count you as landed.

36 minutes ago, GoSlash27 said:

as the game changes, things that were previously impossible become possible (or even commonplace) and vice- versa.

I suppose my point is that apart from glitch abuse (and sometimes not even then), this only goes one way - I don't believe there are many, if any, things that used to be possible in older versions that aren't possible now. Even with changes to the aero model or the physics of the parts, players have fought back with further aero and other optimization techniques. So I think it's definitely valid to evaluate missions outside of their version - I'd instead evaluate them based on what optimizations were used. A Tylo SSTO with no aero optimization at all is probably not possible, but if someone were to do it, that would be more impressive than a Tylo SSTO using heavy optimization.

[camacju]

11 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

I've been wondering why all those high-end optimization goals have to do with atmospheric flight and aerodinamics. especially with this being a game about spaceships.

Then I realized, once you master orbital manuevers, there really isn't much that the stock game can offer. especially if you use isru, you can go everywhere without many problems.

Once a player becomes good enough, the regular career holds no challenge anymore. and then the stock game only holds real challenges in aerodinamics.

Actually, it's more because the ascent is pretty low hanging fruit to squeeze more capability into any given craft. When you're doing a mission that requires tight margins, the single most important factor is payload fraction in Kerbin orbit, so a lot of effort is going to go into maximizing that. This means stuff like dragless fairing shells, taking off from the flats around KSC or even from the polar ice caps, precise ascent profiles, etc.

Your point about ISRU is why many players don't use ISRU - it gives an extra challenge. Similarly, I never use ions, because some missions are just too easy with them. However there's still plenty of challenge that the stock game offers, especially when you have very tight margins that require extreme care.

I don't think the stock game only holds aerodynamics challenges, as long as someone can think of other restrictions that make the game more fun/challenging. Some examples that I've done include missions that must:
-be completely reusable (a pretty common one)
-only use solid fuel/liquid fuel
-only use two/one engine(s)
-only use one fuel tank / two categories of parts
-cost under 20K/10K funds (it's surprising how much you can do in only 20k funds)
-not have connection to KSC
-fit in a cargo bay

and probably more that I'm not remembering.

Point is that apart from fine adjusting aero properties of a plane until you get the desired performance, there's still a lot of fun to be had in KSP.

[moar ssto]

On 8/28/2021 at 10:15 AM, camacju said:

If you want to be pedantic it's also possible to get a 2/3 payload fraction with no wing parts (other than control surfaces, and these can be replaced with reaction wheels for control authority), and this has been done. As for the 50% mark, I feel like a Rapier + Nerv pure "rocket" can come close to that without any hacky aero optimization.

Is the 2/3 payload fraction wingless craft a purely ballistic craft? Or it uses very long takeoff runs to use wheels effectively  as wings, or it has some form of magic wing?

On 8/28/2021 at 10:15 AM, camacju said:

I suppose my point is that apart from glitch abuse (and sometimes not even then), this only goes one way - I don't believe there are many, if any, things that used to be possible in older versions that aren't possible now. Even with changes to the aero model or the physics of the parts, players have fought back with further aero and other optimization techniques. So I think it's definitely valid to evaluate missions outside of their version - I'd instead evaluate them based on what optimizations were used. A Tylo SSTO with no aero optimization at all is probably not possible, but if someone were to do it, that would be more impressive than a Tylo SSTO using heavy optimization.

An ssto without any aero optimisation is quite hard to judge, as you can gradually transform a craft, from just a pile of draggy fuel tanks and engines, to some rootfairing flag montrousity, and including the various widely used forms in this process. You would need to ask very particular questions, like whether there are non standard liting surfaces, whether there is a root fairing, whether there is a fairing,  whether there ispart clipping, whether there is node occlusion, ect. 

Edited September 24, 2021 by moar ssto

[camacju]

6 hours ago, moar ssto said:

Is the 2/3 payload fraction wingless craft a purely ballistic craft? Or it uses very long takeoff runs to use wheels effectively  as wings, or it has some form of magic wing?

Magic wing rapier+nerv ssto. cheaty but technically fits the bill

[moar ssto]

26 minutes ago, camacju said:

Magic wing rapier+nerv ssto. cheaty but technically fits the bill

I see, yea, there will be some debate over whether or not they are wings, as dispite they are not put under the same category in sph, they do have a lifting surface module, as with regular wings, and has a decent(in fact, extraordinary) lift related aero characteristics.