Suggestion: Propeller/Rotor thrust vectoring instead of differential thrust for helicopters

[DancesWithSquirrels]

Currently props and rotors manage pitch/roll/yaw by changing the amount of thrust on different sides of the motor hub, with the imbalance tilting the helicopter. However, this means that designs like the tandem Chinook or the Kaman side-by-side helicopters cannot use prop this for yaw control (shifting the pressure point right on a front rotor and left on a rear rotor zeros out), and multi-rotor helicopter controls are therefore impossible without SAS, RCS, hidden horizontal tail rotors, hinge mounting the motors, or something similar.

Would it be possible to implement pitch/roll/yaw with propeller thrust vectoring, rather than changing the amount of thrust on different sides of the motor hub? Especially since thrust vectoring has always been available for rockets/jets? Helicopter dynamics would become far more realistic as a result.

[shdwlrd]

Intercept has said that not all the parts from KSP1 will make it into KSP2. There has been speculation whether or not the robotic parts will make it into KSP2. So making rotary based craft isn't a guaranteed thing.

[Nirgal]

On 7/15/2021 at 7:58 PM, shdwlrd said:

Intercept has said that not all the parts from KSP1 will make it into KSP2. There has been speculation whether or not the robotic parts will make it into KSP2. So making rotary based craft isn't a guaranteed thing.

It's a pretty fair assumption considering we're getting boats

[MKI]

On 7/17/2021 at 2:33 AM, Nirgal said:

It's a pretty fair assumption considering we're getting boats

You got a solid reference for that? Are we getting dedicated boat parts, (maybe to support building/doing-stuff on water only/mainly planets?) or just rocket parts will again double for boats (with a few "dedicated" parts here and there for their exploration)

 

If there are any kind of parts that get "dropped" for KSP 2 at launch, I'd put robotic parts as very high on the list. They can create bugs, are complex to create and maintain and technically are a DLC part of the first game and came later anyways. 

At the same time, I think improving the helicopter experience is important for integrating them again, either at launch, or at a later time (if robotics ever make it back into the game stock). I only made failed helicopter builds due to their complexity. I'm not sure what the right way would be in satisfying all use-cases with robotics though. Its overall a complex feature of the game, so again if they don't make it into launch I wont be surprised. 

[TLTay]

1 hour ago, MKI said:

Are we getting dedicated boat parts, (maybe to support building/doing-stuff on water only/mainly planets?) or just rocket parts will again double for boats (with a few "dedicated" parts here and there for their exploration)

We don't know yet, but it was already stated that we can spawn a craft directly at a dock at the KSC. Be kind of strange to introduce the means to launch a ship without any ship stuff. 

[Nirgal]

6 hours ago, TLTay said:

We don't know yet, but it was already stated that we can spawn a craft directly at a dock at the KSC. Be kind of strange to introduce the means to launch a ship without any ship stuff. 

Yeah that's what I'm going off. I asked for specific confirmation but was ignored lol. I'd say it's a safe bet though

[KerikBalm]

On 7/15/2021 at 4:46 PM, DancesWithSquirrels said:

Currently props and rotors manage pitch/roll/yaw by changing the amount of thrust on different sides of the motor hub, with the imbalance tilting the helicopter.

To be clear, the game seperates thrust and lift, and what you are discussing is lift.

On 7/15/2021 at 4:46 PM, DancesWithSquirrels said:

However, this means that designs like the tandem Chinook or the Kaman side-by-side helicopters cannot use prop this for yaw control (shifting the pressure point right on a front rotor and left on a rear rotor zeros out), and multi-rotor helicopter controls are therefore impossible without SAS, RCS, hidden horizontal tail rotors, hinge mounting the motors, or something similar.

Well, real helos do this by cyclic, and we now have cyclic, but I think the blade disk needs to actually tilt. I think that just relies on flexing in the blades. I think KSP 1 already could model this if they had an appropriate control algorithm

On 7/15/2021 at 4:46 PM, DancesWithSquirrels said:

Would it be possible to implement pitch/roll/yaw with propeller thrust vectoring, rather than changing the amount of thrust on different sides of the motor hub? Especially since thrust vectoring has always been available for rockets/jets? Helicopter dynamics would become far more realistic as a result.

But real tandom rotors do change the amount of "thrust" on different sides. That is how realistic heli dynamics would work. I think KSP just doesn't know to apply left roll cyclic to the front rotor and rear roll cyclic to the rear rotor.

I get around this by using quad copters, or hinged rotors.

[DancesWithSquirrels]

KerikBalm - When a real-world rotor tilts with cyclic, the blade disk does indeed tilt. And that changes the thrust angle, not the thrust distribution, inducing a rotation around the helicopter CG. When it goes in opposite directions for two rotors, like in a tandem helicopter, the helicopter will yaw accordingly.

I feel the gimbal mechanic used for jet/rocket engines would work well and fairly simply with a rotor hub - and it's more true to life.