Launching kerbals on a ladder

[king of nowhere]

For my caveman challenge, I've been exploring the feasibility of launching kerbals attached to a ladder.

I know it's possible to do it. I know people have done a whole Jool 5 with a kerbal stuck on a ladder the whole time. For extra safety, I thought I'd stick them in a cargo bay too

However, my attempts were unsuccesful.

so here's the kerbal, cozy in her protected space

But the rocket was behaving strange. Like it had a huge aerodinamic problem. I tested this specific rocket a lot of times, and it flies well enough. so I activated aerodinamic overlay

And look that huge red arrow, that's the kerbal in the cargo bay, getting aerodinamic drag like she wasn't protected at all.

She also was overheating, though - again - the caargo bay should protect her. It's clear that the game is modeling the kerbal as if she's independent from the cargo bay.

Once in orbit, the ship was drifting, experiencing a constant push - I guess, when people were talking about the ladder kraken drive, they were describing this exact situation.

And finally, it was impossible to time warp. Well, the game is supposed to not let you time warp with a kerbal on a ladder. But, at least in older versions, I was always able to go back to tracking station, and then time warp. And hey, those people doing the jool 5 did manage to time warp in the three years it took to travel.

They also did a laythe atmospheric reentry with the kerbal on a ladder, protected by the rest of the craft. I tested it, and it turns out a kerbal on a ladder is not protected at all, the game models it as a completely independent craft.

 

So I'm asking, is this something new they did in the later versions that changes how kerbals in eva behave?

And if not, then what is the trick I'm missing?

[Scarecrow71]

I believe it's something that was allowable in really early versions of the game that they "corrected" in later versions.  And, based on the description you gave there, it seems this wouldn't be allowable due to the kraken ladder drive effect.

[king of nowhere]

20 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I believe it's something that was allowable in really early versions of the game that they "corrected" in later versions.  And, based on the description you gave there, it seems this wouldn't be allowable due to the kraken ladder drive effect.

the kraken ladder drive, though, only happened as long as the kerbal was in the cargo bay. if it was on the ladder of the crew pod, there was no problem - i suspect the kraken starts from some small clipping between the comically large helmet of the kerbal and the cargo bay which is just too small to contain it.

Still, even with the kerbal in the "right" place, being unable to time warp would prevent any mission beyond kerbin orbit

[Scarecrow71]

41 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

the kraken ladder drive, though, only happened as long as the kerbal was in the cargo bay. if it was on the ladder of the crew pod, there was no problem - i suspect the kraken starts from some small clipping between the comically large helmet of the kerbal and the cargo bay which is just too small to contain it.

Still, even with the kerbal in the "right" place, being unable to time warp would prevent any mission beyond kerbin orbit

Yeah, after re-reading your post that makes total sense in when the kraken shows up.  It is honestly too bad that the external command seat isn't available until way later in the game.

Although, I'm wondering if it may have something to do with WHERE the service module is as much as with the Kerbal's head being clipped.  That module is directly beneath the command pod.  What happens if you flip where the service module and the SC-9001 are?  Same effect?

[EveMaster]

A cargo bay does not offer any heat protection at all. I experienced that the kerbal even overheats faster in the cargo bay compared to just grabbing to a command pod. I guess this is because heat can be radiated and convected away from the Kerbal easier this way. Or maybe it is because heat from the spacecraft is radiating less towards the Kerbal when standing on a ladder.

For launches without gimbal on the first stage, I slightly tilted the first stage engine to get a "permanent gimbal" that offsets the assymetrical drag caused by the Kerbal. I put a small solar panel as a foothold so the Kerbal does not slip off when golding to the rocket.

To be able to successfully launch long rockets with bad aerodynamic properties, it helps to make it more rigid with rigid connections and autostruts. It also helps to take a steeper ascent profile and to break the sound barrier further up in the atmosphere.

For timewarp in Caveman style, the Kerbal must let go the space ship. After timewarp, use the EVA pack to get back to the ship. Keep the drift under 100 km to be able to use the target marker to find the way back. For the way back to Kerbin, the Kerbal can enter a command pod. This is possible, only exiting a command pod is restricted in Caveman mode.

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, EveMaster said:

A cargo bay does not offer any heat protection at all. I experienced that the kerbal even overheats faster in the cargo bay compared to just grabbing to a command pod. I guess this is because heat can be radiated and convected away from the Kerbal easier this way. Or maybe it is because heat from the spacecraft is radiating less towards the Kerbal when standing on a ladder.

For launches without gimbal on the first stage, I slightly tilted the first stage engine to get a "permanent gimbal" that offsets the assymetrical drag caused by the Kerbal. I put a small solar panel as a foothold so the Kerbal does not slip off when golding to the rocket.

To be able to successfully launch long rockets with bad aerodynamic properties, it helps to make it more rigid with rigid connections and autostruts. It also helps to take a steeper ascent profile and to break the sound barrier further up in the atmosphere.

For timewarp in Caveman style, the Kerbal must let go the space ship. After timewarp, use the EVA pack to get back to the ship. Keep the drift under 100 km to be able to use the target marker to find the way back. For the way back to Kerbin, the Kerbal can enter a command pod. This is possible, only exiting a command pod is restricted in Caveman mode.

yes, i had figured out that much. except that I cannot use autostruts in caveman

16 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Yeah, after re-reading your post that makes total sense in when the kraken shows up.  It is honestly too bad that the external command seat isn't available until way later in the game.

Although, I'm wondering if it may have something to do with WHERE the service module is as much as with the Kerbal's head being clipped.  That module is directly beneath the command pod.  What happens if you flip where the service module and the SC-9001 are?  Same effect?

it took me over one hour to align everything properly to be able to stuff the kerbal in the cargo bay. I'm not going to reshape the rocket and go through the whole ordeal again just for the sake of an experiment.

[OHara]

On 1/7/2022 at 7:22 PM, king of nowhere said:

They also did a laythe atmospheric reentry with the kerbal on a ladder, protected by the rest of the craft. I tested it, and it turns out a kerbal on a ladder is not protected at all, the game models it as a completely independent craft.

Between version 1.8.0 and 1.8.1, KSP stopped protecting separate craft in fairings and cargo bays.

Kerbals seated in a command seat inside a cargo bay are protected (as seated Kerbals are not independent craft) and that can be a lightweight solution, if your challenge allows command seats.

[Scarecrow71]

1 hour ago, OHara said:

if your challenge allows command seats

The Caveman zchallenge is to get 1188 science points and unlock all of Tier v without upgrading any buildings.  The command seat is beyond that, I am afraid.