Kethane Pack 0.9.2 - New cinematic trailer! - 1.0 compatibility update

[KhaosCorp]

Lower density doesn't actually help. When it comes to lifting, it is mass that matters, not volume, so shipping Kethane instead of fuel just means that you have to have more tanks to get the same total amount of final resource to orbit, which makes the vessel bigger, and usually less maneuverable for docking.

Ummm....what??

A resources density is how much MASS it has per unit. Not sure what your basing this statement on...

[Crater]

Ummm....what??

A resources density is how much MASS it has per unit. Not sure what your basing this statement on...

correct, so if you want a ton of fuel in space, it doesn't matter whether you ship a ton of lf+ox @ density=0.005 = 200 units, or a ton of kethane @density=0.002 = 500 units, either way, you're dragging a ton of mass into space, with the associated thrust and fuel costs. so like I said, the fact that kethane has a lower density doesn't help you get it to orbit.

[Pirke]

What if you take into account the fuel mass vs dry tank mass?

[Crater]

The small kethane tank has a drymass 0.25 and holds 1000 units of kethane, totaling 2.25t

The small fuel tank has a drymass 0.25 and holds 400 units of fuel+ox, totaling 2.25t

1000u of kethane is approximately 400u of fuel after conversion

The only part that matters is the conversion efficiency. If you are using a large converter for lf+ox, you should convert in space as it creates 1.007 tons of fuel per ton of kethane. For any other fuel, or for anything done with the small converter, you lose mass in the conversion process, so you should convert before shipping.

[KhaosCorp]

correct, so if you want a ton of fuel in space, it doesn't matter whether you ship a ton of lf+ox @ density=0.005 = 200 units, or a ton of kethane @density=0.002 = 500 units, either way, you're dragging a ton of mass into space, with the associated thrust and fuel costs. so like I said, the fact that kethane has a lower density doesn't help you get it to orbit.

Now put a 1 ton liquid fuel tank and a 1 ton kethane tank next to each other.....your splitting hairs bud....

Also seems like your not taking into account that 1 tank of kethane = ALL FUELS....1 tank of liquid fuel=1 tank of LF.....

This is why I prefer to refine in orbit...makes my dropships alot smaller and very simple in design. Each carrys 6k of kethane. If you wanted to make a similar ship to transport, but do your refining planetside, youd need multiple tanks and more complex lander to be as effective per trip. Refining in orbit also allows for more versatility. As long as my station had Kethane I can refuel anyship with any fuel. If your transporting single resource then you need 4 trips of various fuel types before the station is stock to refuel anything.

Funny thing about all this, either way and your making a net gain, either way is imo 'correct' tactics to get it done. Really boils down to playstyle....how do you want to do things, one of the great things about this mod.

EDIT: about Crater's last post:

You really should only use the small converters for self-sustaining vehicles imo. That conversion loss he speaks of will bite you in the rear if your using small converters as your main converters.

Edited August 8, 2013 by KhaosCorp

[Crater]

LF+OX is a bad example to use, since the conversion efficiency is about 1, with either converter.

If you're talking monoprop instead, then the small converter has an efficiency of 0.3, so you're talking about 3.3t lifted to get 1t of monoprop.

If you're after xenon, then the large converter has an efficiency of .25, so you're lifting 4t to get 1t.

Like you say, it is down to play style. Personally, I have a base on the Mun with conversion facilities, and I also lift raw Kethane to orbit and stock my Munar station with it. But the question I was originally answering was "what is the most efficient", not "what is fun / what is simple / what do others do". So I explained the maths behind the relative efficiencies.

[Thrundar]

I am having the same problem. Anyone know what's causing it?

Same problem. Using KSP .21 latest version and kethane 0.7.5. Kethane parts show up to build with, Grid shows on MAP. NO scanner beep, NO scanning taking place. Even installed with NO other mods, just Stock. Same results. A little miffed I now have to go to yet another site, sign up, yada yada yada. Even tested on a fast PC very similar to a good Alienware pc. Kethane 0.7.5 and .21 ksp just ain't working here. Sigh....oh well, it was a good mod on ksp .20.

[synik4l]

Works fine for me on .21 used it all last night.

[Razchek]

Keep up the good work Majiir. Some nice solid coding with unprecedented functionality.

[OopsThatNotWork]

Haha, working fine for me. My kethane empire continues to expand. Sorry to hear others having trouble. Great work on everything Majiir!

[JewelShisen]

Please use the bug tracker mentioned in the first post. Majiir has stated before that bug reports in here WILL be ignored.

[Thrundar]

Please use the bug tracker mentioned in the first post. Majiir has stated before that bug reports in here WILL be ignored.

Yep, just done did dat. Strange Maj ain't helping here on this thread. He used to did. (That redneck enuff for ya'll) lol.

Anyway, be nice if Kethane worked in .21.1 ...... So thrilled and delighted it works for others. However that helps me out ummm, Zero per cent.

[Rassa Farlander]

I just got it for the first time yesturday and Ive had zero problems with it working at all Did you try a fresh game install and re-download of kethane?

Also thanks for the helpful discussion with efficiency Its given me some ideas Now I just have to figure out some working designs and get some drills in the dirt!

[Majiir]

Regarding transport efficiency: run the numbers on other tanks. Kethane tank mass ratios are not constant across the board the way stock tanks are.

Strange Maj ain't helping here on this thread. He used to did.

Over time, Kethane's popularity has grown and I've fixed tons and tons of bugs. The result, oddly enough, is that Kethane seems more buggy because the remaining issues are more difficult for people to understand. The ratio of user error cases to actual bugs has dramatically risen, and the quality of bug reports has nosedived. (There's also a much greater incidence of bugs caused by something other than Kethane, like the stock game or another mod.) All that coupled with a larger user base means that supporting Kethane has nearly become a part-time job. The forums are really a poor format for handling bug reports, so I ask people to use the issue tracker because it makes things more manageable for me.

Anyway, be nice if Kethane worked in .21.1 ...... So thrilled and delighted it works for others. However that helps me out ummm, Zero per cent.

It's helpful because it indicates that something is wrong on your end. It might be some rare bug you're running into, but it's much, much more likely that you've done something wrong with Kethane or your KSP install, or that you're running into the IO issue where antivirus or other software interferes with the KSP code that Kethane relies on. The fact that it works smoothly for so many people is a big hint!

[Pirke]

The fact that it works smoothly for so many people is a big hint!

Software development 101 when dealing with customer error reports: "this has never happened before / i've never seen it do that / that can't happen / must be bad hardware / the planets are wrongly aligned...."

Though I completely understand your remark, it is also the single most wrong answer given to actual bug reports lol. Poor customers

[Keome]

Aside from the grid problems in 0.7.4 that were not caused by the Kethane mod, I have not experienced any problems with Kethane or any other mod that has been updated to work with KSP 21.1.

The mods I use:

Mechjeb

Kethane

Ioncross Life Support

NovaPunch (stripped down to remove redundant parts, see below)

Kerbal Alarm Clock

FusTek Station Parts Expansion (with parts removed, edited, see below)

Docking Port Indicator

Kerbal Crew Manifest

For NovaPunch, I removed all those extra 1.25 and 2,5 meter fuel tanks. Stock tanks work just fine for me, so having a bunch of extra parts was just using up memory. I also removed fairings and some other parts I don't need or that are redundant.

For FusTek, I edited the station parts to remove the Mechjeb core lines. I also removed the Parts module since I don't use the mod that supports it. Having multiple (I'm talking 10 or 12) Mechjeb sources on one object can cause problems with CPU usage. I tested this by launching a jumbo tank with 60 Mechjeb modules on it. CPU use pegged at 80 percent. Using one Mechjeb, CPU use was 40 percent.

Some mods like Deadly Re-entry and FAR also change a lot of things and increase the amount of RAM and CPU use. Combine this with having every parts pack and mod, it's clear why a lot of you are having trouble

My system specs are impressive *cough* ... it's a Pentium 4 with 2gb of RAM running Windows XP 32-bit with an nVidia 7600 GS video card. I run KSP fine at normal settings. The key is too not have hundreds of parts. Remove mods you don't need, reduce CPU use, cut out redundant parts. You don't need several fuel tanks of similar size.

If I can run KSP with Kethane and a modest set of mods on this real piece of crud system, anyone with a far better system should have no problems.

Edited August 9, 2013 by Keome

[rottielover]

I forgot that you have to run the game the first time for Kethane to create its files.

If you have the same problem I did (parts there but scanners don't seem to be working) then exit te game and restart it.

Again, somewhere it was mentioned that you have to run it once to have it create some file, but to read that created file it has to load it on startup. So you have to : Install mod, run game, exit game, run game. Then it works.

[Majiir]

Again, somewhere it was mentioned that you have to run it once to have it create some file, but to read that created file it has to load it on startup.

The only file Kethane creates is settings.cfg, and it's perfectly happy to find that file missing. It just fills in default values. I only know of one major issue currently, and it's fixed by quicksaving/quickloading.

[HoY]

Regarding transport efficiency: run the numbers on other tanks. Kethane tank mass ratios are not constant across the board the way stock tanks are.

Over time, Kethane's popularity has grown and I've fixed tons and tons of bugs. The result, oddly enough, is that Kethane seems more buggy because the remaining issues are more difficult for people to understand. The ratio of user error cases to actual bugs has dramatically risen, and the quality of bug reports has nosedived. (There's also a much greater incidence of bugs caused by something other than Kethane, like the stock game or another mod.) All that coupled with a larger user base means that supporting Kethane has nearly become a part-time job. The forums are really a poor format for handling bug reports, so I ask people to use the issue tracker because it makes things more manageable for me.

It's helpful because it indicates that something is wrong on your end. It might be some rare bug you're running into, but it's much, much more likely that you've done something wrong with Kethane or your KSP install, or that you're running into the IO issue where antivirus or other software interferes with the KSP code that Kethane relies on. The fact that it works smoothly for so many people is a big hint!

I actually tried to +rep this post but apparently I'm not allowed to give you rep so frequently lol.

[Specialist290]

Don't know if this is a bug or just user error, but I figured I'd post it here:

Is the kethane grid supposed to show up in the loading screen? I'm using Kethane Pace 0.7.5 with KSP 0.21.1. Other mods I have installed include: Kerbal Engineer Redux, Kerbal Attachment System, Romfarer's Lazor system, TAC Fuel Balancer, and Kerbal Alarm Clock.

I apologize if this has been reported before. I looked through the last few pages, but I didn't see anything that seemed related to this.

[drtedastro]

go back, way back. this has been posted and reposted many times.

[Majiir]

The converter module now supports multiple input and output resources. I'll be releasing it sometime during/after this weekend, along with some fixes.

I actually tried to +rep this post but apparently I'm not allowed to give you rep so frequently lol.

I haven't had rep from you recently, but I am getting close to two bars...

[KhaosCorp]

The converter module now supports multiple input and output resources. I'll be releasing it sometime during/after this weekend, along with some fixes.

I haven't had rep from you recently, but I am getting close to two bars...

WOW!!

That is going to open up so much depth and complexity to the KSP industrial revolution. I knew you were working on it, but really thought it would be a bit longer till it was released. Darn near redefines the phrase 'pleasntly supprised' =)

Awesome work, as always!

[HoY]

The converter module now supports multiple input and output resources. I'll be releasing it sometime during/after this weekend, along with some fixes.

I haven't had rep from you recently, but I am getting close to two bars...

i think I only gave One other +1 since I gave you yours? or possibly not even another one. I've been less active on the forums since we started working on KerbolQuest a couple weeks ago.

[Arrowstar]

Hey Majiir, I had a look through the new MIMO code and it looks cool! Can you explain what is meant by "Input Rate" and "Output Ratio"?

Thanks for making my favorite mod that much more awesome!