Kethane Pack 0.9.2 - New cinematic trailer! - 1.0 compatibility update

[drtedastro]

I must have missed it, but with 7.7, how do I reset the kethane deposits? This 'used' to be in the kethane.cfg, under the saves/'current working.dir', but now seems to be in the persistant.sfs

I just want to be able to reset, say kerbin, to build different number of and placement of deposits.

thanks in advance.

EDIT: Reread the release notes, again, and figured it out. thanks.

Edited August 19, 2013 by drtedastro
worked it out.

[Mott Oper]

Drills are undeployable for me...

Edited August 20, 2013 by Mott Oper

[Majiir]

Quick test of a freaky polar deposit generator:

I did a bit of work making the simplex generator more flexible and configurable, and as a result it's completely unintuitive to configure. This is the config for that polar generator:

Generator
{
    name = SimplexResourceGenerator
    SimplexOctaves = 6
    SimplexPersistence = 0.7
    SimplexFrequency = 2.5
    TerrainBivariate
    {
        B = -0.6
        F = -2
    }
    PreBlur
    {
        B = 0.7
        C = -2
    }
    BlurRounds = 1
    BlurBias = 0.5
    PostBlur
    {
        B = 1
        C = 0.25
    }
    DepositCutoff = 1
    ConstantCutoff = 0
    Final
    {
        B = 100000
        C = 0
    }
}

Changing a couple numbers just a little bit makes the generator behave very differently, so tweakers will definitely want to read the documentation when I write it up. It's not a particularly complex system, but there's a bit of work involved in translating an idea in your head into numbers that the generator can use.

Majiir, I was wondering what the plans are for the scanners?

I don't plan to dramatically change scanning for 0.8, but I might tweak a few numbers.

[SyberSmoke]

I am working on my mixed feelings. I see where your trying to go with the distribution of ores and it makes sense. You can really only remove so much ore from an area before it is depleted. But given the lowish current values for Kethane, ho will that be compensated for? Will you be upping the individual hex values for Kethane to make it worth while to mine?

My line of reasoning is that 400k (Current total deposit I am mining right now in the current version) for a deposit is sizable and will probably allow you a good amount of time to stockpile and expand to other areas. At the same time the viability of deposits as the procedural craters are added to other planets becomes decreased. So there will be deposits that just can not be accessed because they are in a bad place.

The benefit to this is that Kethane and mods that use the Kethane system will have greater chance of overlap as long as the deposits are more spread out. But having to baby sit your mining and roam around like a gypsy...not to sure I would call that fun. Challenging...sure, but not fun.

[johnsonwax]

I would argue that Kethane should be moderately common in low quantities (break-even or worse to extract by ship, but perhaps viable by rover to a permanent colony) but with some occasional massive deposits. 400k is sizeable until you undertake a project of considerable scale. Some of us are operating rockets that would consume that entire deposit in one launch (I've drained two deposits on Minmus using one ship back in .18), and since the game will pick up some sort of even rudimentary economic model, kethane is going to fail that model without some adjustment. It's simply not going to be worth building the infrastructure needed to extract it unless there are deposits of considerable quantity - 10s of millions of units or more.

Now, these can be relatively rare, in difficult places, and so on. That's as things work now IRL. Getting to it is always part of the challenge. How do you get to that deposit at the pole? How do you reach the one under the ocean? How do you cover the cost of landing on Eve and getting it off of there (and maybe you don't)?

The old system had discrete deposits that were easy to hit - pick any spot and you can drain the pond. The new system sounds much better - we'll have to be more nimble and more clever. But I think a great deal of diversity in kethane density is key - there should be some honey holes and a lot of places with some, but not enough to set up a whole operation. That will let us build both permanent mining colonies and an incentive to do rovers to pick off the easier to access but smaller deposits. Adding to the incentive, the rate at which the drills extract should be a function of the density of the deposit - so those small deposits are also slow to extract, making the rare honey holes even more temping. And if they're large and fast to work, those that just want to get on with things can do so for the cost of adapting to the conditions of the honey hole location. And if you want to take that long rover excursion, mount a drill and a portable converter and there will be plenty of fuel on your journey for that kind of effort, just not in high quantity.

[Majiir]

I'm approaching these changes with the philosophy that it should be easy to get a little and hard to get a lot. There are a few ways this manifests under my working changes:

• More of a planet's cells will contain Kethane, so it's easier to find a deposit and start mining.
  
• Cells have individual resource levels, so a more complete scan is required to get a complete picture of deposit locations and quantities. (The current system can reveal the total quantity of every deposit with very few cells revealed.) Note that deposit locations will make a certain amount of sense, hopefully (because they'll sometimes follow terrain features).
  
• You can get a lot more Kethane by driving short distances (or taking short flights) than you ever could before...
  
• ...but you'll get less from just sitting still than you could before.
  
• You'll also get more with the heavy drill, which finally gives it a non-cosmetic purpose over the radial drill.

I'm also looking to give logistics a purpose. Currently, you can drill about 300K units (600 tons) from a single deposit, but then the nearest deposit might be so far away that not even planes make sense for transport. I'd like to encourage short- to medium-distance transport logistics. Note that this doesn't necessarily discourage the all-in-one designs that are common today, but such a design would have to "hop" between areas to fill up. Refilling currently means turning everything on, timewarping, and turning everything off; you never do anything to extract Kethane. Now, I haven't got a solution yet that makes the actual extraction more interesting, but at least the whole process of gathering and processing fuel will involve some more thought and interaction.

I want to emphasize you'll still be able to find a lot of Kethane; a deposit on the small side could easily contain 3,000-10,000 tons of fuel, and denser deposits could hold even more ridiculous quantities. Part of the problem with the current deposits is once you mine one dry, you have to go a very long way to get more; the new system will let you get more with a short drive. (Hell, you could even build a base at the point where three cells meet.)

I don't think adding a few "honey pots" would actually improve anything. The way you described them, they'd be strictly superior to any other cell except for being harder to find. That just means more scanning, which doesn't do anything interesting on the extraction end. If anything, denser deposits should be hard to use (in difficult locations, for example) but rewarding.

[asmi]

I don't think adding a few "honey pots" would actually improve anything. The way you described them, they'd be strictly superior to any other cell except for being harder to find. That just means more scanning, which doesn't do anything interesting on the extraction end. If anything, denser deposits should be hard to use (in difficult locations, for example) but rewarding.

In order to solve this problem you could introduce third dimension into the mix, namely, deposit depth. Make it so deposits that are closer to the surface can be mined using lighter equipment (like radial drills), but contain less resources, deep deposits can be huge, but they'll require more advanced equipment (i.e. heavy drill) to extract. You can also make it so in order to find deep deposits, user would need to use different scanner which would detect the mere presence of the deposit, but getting any information about it would require landing and test-drilling to take samples. To give both light and heavy equipment a purpose, you can make them not interchangeable (i.e. heavy scanner can't find surface deposits, and vice versa).

[SyberSmoke]

Just a little BG before I comment. I am a fan and play Minecraft using a mod pack called Feed the Beast. In one of the packs I use is a mod called Gregtech. Greg is loathed and loved because he makes the path to teching in the mod obscenely complicated and reliant on materials that, to be frank, you would have to strip mine a continent to find in quantity. That kind of game design is not making a game harder, it is just making it more drawn out...kind of like why MMO's have all those fluff go here kill that side quests. It is bad game design.

In order to solve this problem you could introduce third dimension into the mix, namely, deposit depth. Make it so deposits that are closer to the surface can be mined using lighter equipment (like radial drills), but contain less resources, deep deposits can be huge, but they'll require more advanced equipment (i.e. heavy drill) to extract. You can also make it so in order to find deep deposits, user would need to use different scanner which would detect the mere presence of the deposit, but getting any information about it would require landing and test-drilling to take samples. To give both light and heavy equipment a purpose, you can make them not interchangeable (i.e. heavy scanner can't find surface deposits, and vice versa).

The above said, this idea makes allot of sense. You can scan an area and get a good approximation of where to find surface deposits. But then to find something richer you need to up the game.

If you wanted variety it could also consider deposit type. Some deposits could be small and higher up because they are rock born, easy to get at, hard to get allot from an area. The Material could also have more easily accessible deposits deeper, like oil fields that are hard to access, but with a little planning the whole field can be mined for years. But those deposits are hard to get and require better surveying and core sampling.

I like the idea, the mod is well done and the art is excellent. I just do not wish to see it devolve into something where you have to move around and mine for an hour just to get 5 tons. Some may want that...but it is not game play, it is just filler.

Question though...is Kethane a solid, liquid, or a gas? May be this is the key? Could Kethane towards the surface be a gas with deaper more dense deposits being a liquid? Gas under pressure will condense.

Edited August 20, 2013 by SyberSmoke

[johnsonwax]

Well, if you are looking at 3,000 - 10,000t for small deposits, you've already covered my idea of a honey hole. I would routinely mine deposits dry in .18 so a permanent base made little sense for me. I could mine a 3,000t deposit dry, but it'd take some work (certainly more than one ship). If you have ones that are 10x-100x that rich, they'd warrant a permanent colony. And that's enough. We simply run out of in-game time to deplete one of those given that mining must be happening within physics range.

But I like the idea that denser deposits should be in difficult locations, but once you get that setup with the big drill and all of the storage, it should be stable and reliable. I think you're doing exactly what is needed.

[Majiir]

I like the idea, the mod is well done and the art is excellent. I just do not wish to see it devolve into something where you have to move around and mine for an hour just to get 5 tons. Some may want that...but it is not game play, it is just filler.

I wish people would have a little more confidence that I know what I'm doing. Nobody ever said anything about moving around mining for long periods of time to get small quantities. I said you may have to move around (which doesn't necessarily take a lot of time) in order to get very large quantities. At this point, none of the numbers are nailed down since I'm still working on how deposits are placed; scaling is the last step. Still, we're talking hundreds of tons being the threshold for requiring a bit of movement. The smallest of cells might have 40-50 tons with some cells in the 100+ range, and with a heavier drill that means potentially unlocking 400 or so tons from a single location, which is on par with current levelsâ€â€except that with the changes, moving over a few kilometers will let you do it again.

To be perfectly honest, these numbers could probably use tweaking down. In any case, give it a playthrough (or at least read the numbers I've been giving) before you start making Minecraft comparisons.

[SyberSmoke]

I wish people would have a little more confidence that I know what I'm doing. Nobody ever said anything about moving around mining for long periods of time to get small quantities. I said you may have to move around (which doesn't necessarily take a lot of time) in order to get very large quantities. At this point, none of the numbers are nailed down since I'm still working on how deposits are placed; scaling is the last step. Still, we're talking hundreds of tons being the threshold for requiring a bit of movement. The smallest of cells might have 40-50 tons with some cells in the 100+ range, and with a heavier drill that means potentially unlocking 400 or so tons from a single location, which is on par with current levelsâ€â€except that with the changes, moving over a few kilometers will let you do it again.

To be perfectly honest, these numbers could probably use tweaking down. In any case, give it a playthrough (or at least read the numbers I've been giving) before you start making Minecraft comparisons.

I did not at any point state you did not know what you were doing. That was more for others on the forum then your self. In the end it is your mod and not mine. I can only suggest things. If they are not to my liking, no one is forcing me to use the mod. So far your concept is good, but the future is not known so...I prefer not to make judgments, just state history and what I know.

My personal preference is to be able to set down and enjoy an area. I like working on bases, building cities and so forth. Moving on and not being able to develop an area is contrary to my play style...I am a turtle I guess. But that is me and my preference, others like other things so to each their own.

Edited August 20, 2013 by SyberSmoke

[drtedastro]

I like the idea of having to muk around abit.

Gives you a chance to see the place, make more holes in the ground.

good stuff....

[Olympic1]

Back from holiday and KSP has updated to 21.1. I can't wait to play more KSP with this awesome mod

[Arrowstar]

I'm also looking to give logistics a purpose. Currently, you can drill about 300K units (600 tons) from a single deposit, but then the nearest deposit might be so far away that not even planes make sense for transport. I'd like to encourage short- to medium-distance transport logistics. Note that this doesn't necessarily discourage the all-in-one designs that are common today, but such a design would have to "hop" between areas to fill up. Refilling currently means turning everything on, timewarping, and turning everything off; you never do anything to extract Kethane. Now, I haven't got a solution yet that makes the actual extraction more interesting, but at least the whole process of gathering and processing fuel will involve some more thought and interaction.

Thank you! The most interesting part of Kethane is getting it moved around to where it needs to go. Anything to improve that aspect of the game is much appreciated.

[Goatgas]

I have tried to send my log text to github because of an issue with drills and sensors causing game to crash but github wont take the log as it claims its too many characters.. any suggestions?

[SkyRender]

It might be interesting to have a Kethane-fueled rocket engine at some point. With the right strengths (nice and high ISP) and drawbacks (only runs on Kethane), it could really up the usefulness of larger Kethane tanks. As it stands now, the old "tiny drilling unit/huge fuel tug" technique is the most practical solution for just about any situation. Making Kethane patches dry up faster but having more of them wouldn't really do much to this style, since short hops are entirely within the realm of possibility with that combo. But a series of Kethane-powered rocket motors would be a real game-changer.

[Haybale100]

Hello fellow kerbnauts

I am having an issue where every time i open KSP, i am confronted with a popup that is titles Incorrect Kethane Installation.

I have included a link to a screen capture of the popup here.

From what i can understand, the MMI_kethane.dll is in the wrong location, although it is in the same spot as it is in the zip file.

I have a theory as to why i am receiving this error, which is that i am using the Kerbal Mod Manager (link to its forum thread here) and i have noted that not every file is transferred during the mod installation through the mod manager (i attempt to correct this by adding it manually afterwards).

If someone could tell me the correct location the MMI_Kethane.dll should be in, it would be most appreciated.

Also if someone could attempt to replicate and confirm this error using the mod manager (with the proper mod installation, as i mentioned above), it would also be most appreciated.

I thank you in advance for your help...

And i wish that you fly safe.

Haybale100

[GavinZac]

Hello fellow kerbnauts

I am having an issue where every time i open KSP, i am confronted with a popup that is titles Incorrect Kethane Installation.

I have included a link to a screen capture of the popup here.

From what i can understand, the MMI_kethane.dll is in the wrong location, although it is in the same spot as it is in the zip file.

I have a theory as to why i am receiving this error, which is that i am using the Kerbal Mod Manager (link to its forum thread here) and i have noted that not every file is transferred during the mod installation through the mod manager (i attempt to correct this by adding it manually afterwards).

If someone could tell me the correct location the MMI_Kethane.dll should be in, it would be most appreciated.

Also if someone could attempt to replicate and confirm this error using the mod manager (with the proper mod installation, as i mentioned above), it would also be most appreciated.

I thank you in advance for your help...

And i wish that you fly safe.

Haybale100

1. Do not use mod managers.

2. Do not use mod managers!

3. If the mod manager doesn't even work and you have to move files around by yourself, why not just follow the installation instructions and paste it there yourself?

[OopsThatNotWork]

1. Do not use mod managers.

2. Do not use mod managers!

3. If the mod manager doesn't even work and you have to move files around by yourself, why not just follow the installation instructions and paste it there yourself?

Sorry but I have to agree with this. Mod managers not worth it anymore. 99% of the time, all you do is take the contents of the game data folder from the mod zip and paste it into the game data folder for KSP........cant get any easier to mod at the moment.

Edit: Or to install mods at least.

[SkyRender]

Some ideas for Kethane rockets... The number in brackets is the effective ISP I had in mind since Kethane is 5 times lighter than liquid fuel. The idea here is to make Kethane a clearly superior alternative to liquid fuel, since it's such a hassle to mine and since you can't launch with full Kethane tanks. Just getting a Kethane-powered ship into orbit would be its own challenge, and managing a mixed-fuel-use fleet would actually up the variety factor of Kethane considerably.

K-1 Kethane Rocket Motor

Thrust: 25

ISP (Atmo): 110 (550)

ISP (Vac): 160 (800)

Mass: 0.15t

Description: The K-1 is a low-powered Kethane-driven rocket engine. It doesn't work with anything but Kethane, and it has terrible fuel efficiency compared to liquid fuel, but it can still get you a long ways if you use it right.

K-10 Kethane Rocket Motor

Thrust: 100

ISP (Atmo): 100 (500)

ISP (Vac): 150 (750)

Mass: 1t

Description: This innovative engine burns Kethane instead of liquid fuel and oxidizer, allowing you to lift off with unrefined fuel. It's nowhere near as efficient as a regular engine, but since you can carry a lot more Kethane than liquid fuel per ton, it tends to work out in your favor.

K-25 Kethane Rocket Motor

Thrust: 250

ISP (Atmo): 90 (450)

ISP (Vac): 140 (700)

Mass: 1.5t

Description: Demand for higher-power rocket engines that run on Kethane resulted in this impressive engine. Like all other K-series rocket engines, it only runs on Kethane and does not get anywhere near the efficiency of a regular rocket engine.

K-50 Kethane Rocket Motor

Thrust: 500

ISP (Atmo): 80 (400)

ISP (Vac): 125 (625)

Mass: 3t

Description: The K-50 is a true beast of a rocket engine, allowing for some serious thrust under Kethane power. Of course, it does go through fuel like candy, but that's what happens when you rely on heavy rocket motors that run on Kethane.

K-100 Kethane Rocket Motor

Thrust: 1000

ISP (Atmo): 70 (350)

ISP (Vac): 100 (500)

Mass: 6t

Description: This behemoth engine can almost rival a Mainsail in sheer thrust power. It also features a world-record-setting low fuel efficiency.

Edited August 21, 2013 by SkyRender

[Animal Mother]

I noticed that when you are not focused on the satellite that your scanning with, deposits are not uncovered. Do you actually need to use the dish and antenna to communicate back to base and provide a constant stream of deposit information?

[astropapi1]

I noticed that when you are not focused on the satellite that your scanning with, deposits are not uncovered. Do you actually need to use the dish and antenna to communicate back to base and provide a constant stream of deposit information?

That's how KSP Works. The only vessel that "works" is the one you're playing with. It's not a comms problem, it's that you need to stay focused on that ship.

[dmage]

hi. i have downloaded ksp 0.21.2.276 and want to play with kethane pack 0.7.7 and it does not work!

installed according the manual and no grid on palnet, not evan a right-click menu on the scanner, for example.

what i'm doing wrong?

[GeckoOBac]

hi. i have downloaded ksp 0.21.2.276 and want to play with kethane pack 0.7.7 and it does not work!

installed according the manual and no grid on palnet, not evan a right-click menu on the scanner, for example.

what i'm doing wrong?

The grid is only visible while in "orbit" mode view or from the tracking station. To access the orbit mode press M during flight

[dmage]

The grid is only visible while in "orbit" mode view or from the tracking station. To access the orbit mode press M during flight

none of this modes shows the grid