[AAR] The Grand Tour - Voyage To The Planets

[TheDataMiner]

Jeb.

Berty may have correct motives, but he is in fact very ignorant. Now, let's assume that kerbins governments are the same as ours. If you gave valuable military/scientific data to a peaceful country, kerbality would be improved. Now, if you gave it to say, North Kerea (get it! Kerea.. Like Korea...I'll let myself out now) well, you could just imagine what would happen if they had the slightest bit of military advantage over any country.

[The Error]

Jeb, mainly because while BERTY has moral high ground, Jeb is correct in that no kerbal asked him to be their guardian.

Also, where are Proteus' external emergency overrides?

[justspace103]

BERTHYs gone HAL

[Deadpangod3]

Press the red button, Jeb!

[BigOto2]

I'm with Berty on the moral side, but Jeb on the mission side, I guess. Jeb is a bit of a stretch thinker, and I feel he underestimates danger, but BERTY underestimates possibilities and is only worsening the crew's situation (minus Rozer).

[Spuds]

Was there ever a doubt? Jeb, of course!

BERTY brings up a good point; that the US of K is being selfish in its motives, and that the data collected should be given to all of Kerbalkind. This is a rational, normal conclusion that many people would have made. However, BERTY's manipulation of the crew, especially Jebediah, is detrimental to their success. BERTY claims that he is only acting in Kerbalkind's best interest, but he's flinging them at planets and moons like cow patties (Sorry, sorry...). If he had a genuine interest in Kerbals, he would have told at least Jeb or Bill the mission and made it explicitly clear that this was a mission with a high chance of failure.

And this is where BERTY fails, people. He fails to recognize that he is just a machine, built to SERVE the crew, not carry out his own agenda. I find it ironic that he says that he's helping Kerbality, while plotting the destruction of a nation and acting selfishly on his own. He's just a computer, a mess of capacitors and processors. A computer will never understand the moral decisions that go on in every day life, much less over a period of time. This is why he couldn't predict Jeb up to a point; There are just too many variables, too many ways a Kerbal with EMOTIONS can act. BERTY doesn't have EMOTIONS, so he can never expect to help an intelligent species with EMOTIONS.

Anyway, that's it for my rant. Thank you czo for writing such and amazing AAR. I look forward to seeing your AAR flourish and your guide!

[iDan122]

Berty.

Don't want to be the fun killer but Jeb was always my least fav character, Rozer was fav on the other hand

Berty just wants to do the right thing, going to Bop to find dead bodies is pretty much a waste,so...

I only agree on one thing with Jeb-to try rescue the Duna crew.

Other than that Jeb is quite mad and doesn't think logically or philosophically in any way.

Btw there are some mistakes above:

You wrote Mun instead of Duna

You wrote "prove" where it should be "probe"

[iDan122]

Jeb.

Berty may have correct motives, but he is in fact very ignorant. Now, let's assume that kerbins governments are the same as ours. If you gave valuable military/scientific data to a peaceful country, kerbality would be improved. Now, if you gave it to say, North Kerea (get it! Kerea.. Like Korea...I'll let myself out now) well, you could just imagine what would happen if they had the slightest bit of military advantage over any country.

Then they would kill half the world thus removing half of the worlds mouths, half of the worlds industry, harmful emissions cut by half, resource depletion-cut by half, resource consuming-cut by half. Humanity survives for half as long and earth dies half as slower, also everyone gets twice a such space and everything is twice cheaper. More money to advance and so on....so Berty is pretty much right, he just wants to save them from themselves. Many people don't understand that every day we are biting bits of our float and sooner or later that float won't be able to handle anyone, much like Earth in a hundred years.

[Exovian]

BERTY is correct with regards to the future of Kerbalkind. However, I feel that his actions towards the crew betray a lack of understanding that can only be fixed with healthy communication. I think BERTY would have found the scientists on the mission willing, and with time even eager, to assist him in his chosen directive. He botched that, and badly.

[Spuds]

You bring up a good point there, but I still believe that BERTY's methods are flawed. He believes that the Kerbals are unable to help themselves, and I disagree with that. As I've stated before, BERTY doesn't have true emotions, and therefore does not understand the Kerbals. I believe that the Kerbals, like us, do not require intervention to prevent our death and/or annihilation in the future; we're/they're perfectly capable of fixing our own/their own lives. He doesn't understand this; he's unwilling to let Kerbals decide for themselves what must be done, something I believe a simple robot shouldn't have the privilidge of doing.

[Cal'Mihe]

Jeb.

Berty takes away the one thing that he gained himself: Choice.

If Berty was truely a benevolent entity, then he would inform kerbality about the path their actions are taking them, and helping them make an informed decision. But instead, he has to work through force and coercion. Machine or not, he is acting as a tyrant, not a guide.

On a side note, Jeb's darkest hour (and his long isolation) was when he realised that he himself had deprived his crew of their choice, even though he might have been forced to do so.

[SpaceSphereOfDeath]

I'm on jebs side, He has had to overcome emotional events that BERTY could never understand, and he also DOESN'T LEAVE US WITH ANNOYING CLIFF HANGERS GAWD. I mean he has good intentions and knows how to put them into action

[Danish_Savage]

If you look logically on it, like a machine, than Berty is right, however if you look morally on it, Jeb is correct.

[silentdragon]

I feel like many don't see the problem (that is well applicable to us too): We're too many and we take too much resources that our Planet will never be able to restore. We basically destroy ourselves and everything else. Of course no one can just go ahead and kill half of humanity, even if this might "fix" the problem or give us more time to fix it. It's a very difficult question, and I honestly don't expect anyone to find a solution for it - in our world. In the Kerbal universe, BERTY might be the only one who can ensure Kerbin's and Kerbality's survival in the long term. Of course this is not easy to explain morally, but if the other option is the extinction of all Kerbals... By the way, has anyone ever read "The Swarm" by Frank Schätzing? It kinda also deals with the problem we're discussing here, I certainly recommend reading it.

Czo, I guess you got into something rather complicated there...

[Krevsin]

I think there is a bit of truth in both Jeb and Berty's argument. While it is morally wrong for USK to form a monopoly on technological advancement, it is also wrong to leave someone to their death just because it might increase chances of failure by a small percentage.

Like almost everyone said, working in accordance with morality and acting out of emotion rather than pure intellect is what really makes us human (or in the case of Proteus' crew, kerbal) and it would be stupid to forget that.

So in the end, while there is a bit of truth to both of their arguments, I'd have to go with Jeb because he's, well, more human/kerbal.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Krevsin

[Raptor831]

I've already "voted", so to speak, but I love these discussions!

Logic is cold and unfeeling. Yes, logic would conclude that going to search for the dead would be useless. Extra fuel used and extra time gone. It's also why BERTY kept speaking of Harsen as an experiment, not as a kerbal. If he's dead, he doesn't care. Might as well get some science out of it and use a logical opportunity to help kerbality.

Love is not logical, compassion is not logical. Having compassion on the infirm and those who cannot survive on their own is not logical. In wild populations, the sick and old and slow are the ones who get eaten first. By taking care of them and protecting them, we prevent natural selection. Why are these things done? Because there's something greater than simple logic going on.

In a sense, both BERTY and Jeb are "right". But Jeb has the more human/kerbal reasoning. Rozer is generally not liked precisely because he acts very logically, without compassion. And yet, as soon as we get a reason to feel compassion towards Rozer (see previous chapter about him) he becomes less disliked.

Psychology and philosophy. Dang, I love this story!

[The Jedi Master]

I agree with the above. Many speak of a perfect society based entirely on logic. Such a society would not lie or swindle or hold grudges. Awesome, right? Here is the problem. Such a society would also not love, nor would it make friendships, nor would it help its own, nor would it make art, compose music or write stories. Heck, it probably wouldn't even make a game like KSP. It would be a world of clones with identical personalities, all cold and ruthless.

Think about that next time you wonder why they gave Spock emotions.

[SpaceSphereOfDeath]

Logic is cold and unfeeling

Logic can be cold and unfeeling, but it allowed the earliest Philosophers to explore the nature of the world, and I (personally) believe that (up to a point) The most logic solution is the best. lets examine the situation from BERTYs point of view.

He is confused at the reaction of jeb, because he is incapable of feeling empathy, apart from towards the purpose of his existence (the mission and its success), this is similar to jebs situation, both are incapable of feeling empathy towards one another let alone both of their causes. Therefore jeb is being just as naive and correct as BERTY, both of their views are correct, and both have their flaws, BERTYs is unethical to us, but it is completely allowed by his definition of ethics (the mission, as stated earlier)

and jeb sees this as unethical, and it can be applied the other way around. You have stated the previous points in your post, except the you didn't deal with the different ethic view points.

and yes, A world of completely logic beings would be a 'terrible' situation, apart from knowledge, they would logic calculate the quickest and easiest way to progress technology and we would be much further in civilization terms. Not creatively. It's like a IQ test, those who think most logicically excel, but those who's brain is wired different may excel at, say, social thought processes, I believe I am a good example of, I am under 16 (not revealing age) and I understand organic chemistry, speak 4 languages, understand quantum physics, general relativity and calculus, but I am about the mental age of 4 in social situations, and in communication. I never really talk to anyone and I am introverted. I am essentially the human embodiment of BERTY. I undestand where he is coming from and his reasons, but I can also take into account the complete (in our reference frame) un-ethical...ness of his actions. Thus by proof of contradiction, they are both wrong.

Q DOT E DOT D

Edited January 4, 2014 by SpaceSphereOfDeath

[Raptor831]

Logic can be cold and unfeeling, but it allowed the earliest Philosophers to explore the nature of the world, and I (personally) believe that (up to a point) The most logic solution is the best.

I would actually agree with this. The "humans are a virus" reference is a great example of logic being ignored. Obviously if you consume all resources on your planet everyone dies. Yet we still consume. BERTY gives this as a reason to not follow orders from Kermerica.

In my opinion, you'd need both to survive. Humanity (and kerbality in this case) needs the illogic of the dreamers, artists, and rebels to soften the edges of logic, but we need those with logic to give us truth and reason.

That's the struggle Czok is dealing with in the story. How far is too far? When does the pursuit of science make us inhuman? Is being "human" a good thing (or, are we a virus)? When does emotion pull us too far? All very interesting questions.

[czokletmuss]

Thank you for sharing your opinions, reading them was very interesting experience - even in such a small group there are a lot of different positions on the subject. Prepare for the next chapter for it is coming Soon

[The Jedi Master]

Not to bug you, but when is that AAR Guide coming? I'm really looking forward to it.

[czokletmuss]

Not to bug you, but when is that AAR Guide coming? I'm really looking forward to it.

When I have more time Today I finished "filming" (taking screenshots) for the next chapter(s) and that's about it. So I don't really know right now - but it will be released

[The Jedi Master]

When I have more time Today I finished "filming" (taking screenshots) for the next chapter(s) and that's about it. So I don't really know right now - but it will be released

Fair enough. I wonder how Jeb is gonna get out of this one.

[SpaceSphereOfDeath]

Fair enough. I wonder how Jeb is gonna get out of this one.

He won't MHAHAHAHAHHAHA!

[Mad Potatoes]

Erm... I think I'm a little bit late for it, but as I say: "Better late than never"

This is a VERY interesting situation.

As SpaceSphereOfDeath already stated, they both have their own ethics 'definitions'.

BERTY says that his actions would lead kerbality to thrive for longer, and indeed, they will. But he didn't notice how the kerbals behave after the death of another one, and didn't successfully calm Jeb down because he doesn't know how to manage these feelings because he has no empathy because he has no feelings.

Jeb sees the kerbal side of this question, affected by his emotions, which BERTY can't comprehend at the time. He's a sentient being, so it makes more sense from the view of a kerbal or human to say what he says instead of what BERTY does.

Concerning the visit to Bill and Genanand on Bop, Jeb wins. Who the hell cares about just a few more fuel usage when your friend is dying?

Regarding the downfall of the USK and the division of the world in countries, I totally agree with BERTY. Everyone has the right to know everything. Plus, this is just a silly greed, only to say "i'm better than you" and do whatever you want. Not letting anyone know anything about the alien technology only slows kerbality down.

And yeah, thats my opinion.

---------

Well, off this topic...

CZO, YOU'RE FREAKIN AWESOME!!!!

Your story is just amazing, I went through it almost unstoppably and lurked a bit after I finished in chapter 50, just waiting for 51 and 52. I was just too amazed to post anything.

I can only say: MOAR!!!

Really. Right to the feels.

Can't wait for the next chapters ^^

fun fact: i always imagine BERTY with a female voice, even though you refer to him as male. oops.