Build On Grasslands?

[Scarecrow71]

I am in the midst of trying the Caveman challenge on HARD, and science has all but bottomed out with me needing 8 nodes on Tier V.  This means I need to leave Kerbin and go collect science on Mun and/or Minmus...but I'm limited to 30 parts and 18 tons.

I have an idea to.build a craft away from the KSC, specifically in the grasslands to the west of the KSC.  I could launch to LKO and try docking there, but I am horrible at manual rendezvous.  So I want to explore this option first before wasting all of my remaining funds on LKO madness.

The big issue with the grasslands is that I cannot utilize EVA construction due to weight limits.  So I probably have to use docking ports.  Which is fine, I guess.

My question:  does anyone know of a video or a thread that covers this?  I need as much help as I can get here.

[king of nowhere]

8 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I am in the midst of trying the Caveman challenge on HARD, and science has all but bottomed out with me needing 8 nodes on Tier V.  This means I need to leave Kerbin and go collect science on Mun and/or Minmus...but I'm limited to 30 parts and 18 tons.

I have an idea to.build a craft away from the KSC, specifically in the grasslands to the west of the KSC.  I could launch to LKO and try docking there, but I am horrible at manual rendezvous.  So I want to explore this option first before wasting all of my remaining funds on LKO madness.

The big issue with the grasslands is that I cannot utilize EVA construction due to weight limits.  So I probably have to use docking ports.  Which is fine, I guess.

My question:  does anyone know of a video or a thread that covers this?  I need as much help as I can get here.

how would you plan to use docking ports if you build a rocket on the ground? do you have rover wheels unlocked so you can actually move stuff on the ground?
and if you do have that, you don't need to build on grassland. make a rover on the launchpad, then send rovers from the runway with stuff to dock.

I made extensive use of this technique in my nanodiamond runs. Some descriptions available with mission reports here (starting from part 7) and here (starting from part 4)

 

unfortunately, the descriptions are all over the place, as i wrote of various new improvements i found in the chapter i found them

 

P.S. if you unlocked the Oscar B, you can manipulate that in eva construction on kerbin with 4 astronauts
 

[Scarecrow71]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

how would you plan to use docking ports if you build a rocket on the ground? do you have rover wheels unlocked so you can actually move stuff on the ground?

See, that's the trick here.  I have a lander that I can attach parts to...but I'm stuck at the whole "we build vertically in the VAB, so how do I get boosters attached in the right way" phase.  I have Aviation unlocked, so I have access to the airplane wheels.  Not the best, but they can be used to move stuff around.

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

and if you do have that, you don't need to build on grassland. make a rover on the launchpad, then send rovers from the runway with stuff to dock.

That's kind of what I was talking about.  Moving away from the runway (or the launchpad) with stuff to attach to other parts already out there.  I said grasslands because, well, that's the first thing I think of when I think of building off-site.  But I'll see how far I actually have to go to make sure I don't run into the 18 ton limit.

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

I made extensive use of this technique in my nanodiamond runs. Some descriptions available with mission reports here (starting from part 7) and here (starting from part 4)

I will have to check these out!

[jimmymcgoochie]

30 parts and 18 tons is plenty to get a small, light probe out to Minmus with relatively low tech parts and then perform several landings in different biomes to max out the science returns. A couple of Oscars and an Ant engine will be more than ample for a small probe, which means the rocket can be smaller and lighter too- my brief test had 3400m/s or so on the probe in LKO from a 16 ton rocket with fuel to spare on the second stage too- oodles for Minmus even with an inefficient launch and transfer.

[king of nowhere]

3 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

See, that's the trick here.  I have a lander that I can attach parts to...but I'm stuck at the whole "we build vertically in the VAB, so how do I get boosters attached in the right way" phase.  I have Aviation unlocked, so I have access to the airplane wheels.  Not the best, but they can be used to move stuff around.

 

as you can see in the picture i linked, you build a vertical rocket, then put the docking ports laterally, and dock the boosters on the side that way. you have to go a bit by trial and error to get the right height on the docking ports, but once you do, you can make your standardized set of dockable boosters and use it all the time.
sometimes docking stuff like that collapses the whole ship. it would be better to use ground stabilizers, i didn't because i couldn't afford the tech and the extra parts.
maneuvering on the ground with just plane wheels is going to be though. you will need plane engines on your tanker to move, one pointed backwards because you will need some way to reverse gear.

if you can, better to undock the boosters from the tanker rover a few seconds before docking the rocket. if you dock the booster while it's still attached to the tanker rover, it can cause microclipping that will damage the whole vehicle.
you also need some engine with good gimbaling, to compensate for the fact that those extra tanks don't always get docked perfectly straight.

anyway, if you can manage orbital rendez-vous and docking without the control station, it may just be easier to get extra fuel in orbit.

 

2 hours ago, jimmymcgoochie said:

30 parts and 18 tons is plenty to get a small, light probe out to Minmus with relatively low tech parts and then perform several landings in different biomes to max out the science returns. A couple of Oscars and an Ant engine will be more than ample for a small probe, which means the rocket can be smaller and lighter too- my brief test had 3400m/s or so on the probe in LKO from a 16 ton rocket with fuel to spare on the second stage too- oodles for Minmus even with an inefficient launch and transfer.

yes, it is fully possible to make a minmus mission with caveman without docking. however, it's not trivial, especially if one finds orbital rendez-vous without maneuver nodes difficult. and especially if one hasn't unlocked the ant engines and has to use the heavier terrier. it took me a bit to refine the process until i could make it reliably.

[Scarecrow71]

@king of nowhere

I have the lander and central stack out on the launchpad right now.  I'm with you - I can't spare the extra parts right now to use launch clamps, which really would be very helpful.  But, que sera, and all.

My issue with the airplane wheels is going to be turning.  As in, they don't turn effectively enough with this large of a load on them.  I have the side booster built as a subassembly, and I can easily enough identify height.  But those airplane wheels are going to be the death of me.  That, and CoM; I'm finding that the current rover design wants to tip this thing forward.  I'm trying to get enough weight near the back of this thing so that it is either straight OR tilts a bit to the back.

I am aware of the need for jet engines.  I'm actually toying with using a rocket engine (Reliant) to get some speed and then move forward with braking to slow down.  You are correct on needing a second engine pointing the other way for reverse; that's something I hadn't thought of before.  This might actually help with my CoM issue above.  Hmmm.

All told, I totally appreciate the help you are providing here.  I am really hoping to get to, land on, and return from Minmus with this particular build/mission.  If this works - and while I know you did it, I doubt myself - I might just try an interplanetary mission using these same concepts.  Not that I'm trying for order of the trilobyte, but what does one have to do to get that?  Is a singular mission to, say, Duna, complete with a landing, on HARD mode acceptable?  Or is that reserved for those nano-diamond peeps who do a Jool-5?

Edited September 12 by Scarecrow71

[king of nowhere]

39 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

@king of nowhere

  Not that I'm trying for order of the trilobyte, but what does one have to do to get that?  Is a singular mission to, say, Duna, complete with a landing, on HARD mode acceptable?  Or is that reserved for those nano-diamond peeps who do a Jool-5?

depends on the decision of challenge holder. he awards it when he feels it appropriate.

that said, i'm afraid he may no longer be active... I already picked up the task of keeper for the jool 5 challenge, i don't want to take a second one. mostly because i'd feel crass rating my own submissions.

[Scarecrow71]

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

depends on the decision of challenge holder. he awards it when he feels it appropriate.

that said, i'm afraid he may no longer be active... I already picked up the task of keeper for the jool 5 challenge, i don't want to take a second one. mostly because i'd feel crass rating my own submissions.

Yeah, I'm not looking to cheese into it, or even claim it if it isn't warranted.  I was just curious because that's the one thing that doesn't really have a firm description on what it takes.  I assume at least one interplanetary trip on a difficulty of no less than Hard...but again, that's subjective.  And I'm not planning on going interplanetary with this run anyhow; I've spent already far too much time trying to build this one off-site craft to get to Minmus.  But, well, I'll probably try it anyhow.

How does one go about requesting taking over a challenge for someone who is no longer active?

[king of nowhere]

18 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

 I've spent already far too much time trying to build this one off-site craft to get to Minmus.  But, well, I'll probably try it anyhow.

 

it would probably be a lot easier to just assemble something in orbit. you said you're not good at it, but with some practice you would become. i wasn't good at many of the things I eventually did in the challenge; the challenge forced me to stretch and learn

Quote

How does one go about requesting taking over a challenge for someone who is no longer active?

no idea. though i suppose you could just open a new thread and declare yourself the new challenge holder

[JeDoesStuff]

I did a max difficulty career mode a little while ago. To get to Minmus, I clipped fuel tanks into service bays to reduce drag, and used gravity assists (without patched connics mind you, quickloads though) to reduce delta v requirements. With those, you can get to Minmus with tier 3-4 tech and for less than 18 tons and 30 parts.

[Scarecrow71]

25 minutes ago, JeDoesStuff said:

I did a max difficulty career mode a little while ago. To get to Minmus, I clipped fuel tanks into service bays to reduce drag, and used gravity assists (without patched connics mind you, quickloads though) to reduce delta v requirements. With those, you can get to Minmus with tier 3-4 tech and for less than 18 tons and 30 parts.

I'm trying to avoid heavy part clipping with this one.  But I may give this a serious look.

[king of nowhere]

8 hours ago, JeDoesStuff said:

With those, you can get to Minmus with tier 3-4 tech and for less than 18 tons and 30 parts.

you can go to minmus without any of that too.

that did the trick. no fairings - i never could afford to pay their tech, but this thing is reasonably aerodynamic anyway. it does require a bobcat engine, but you can get one with a contract without unlocking the tech node. the spark engine doesn't really help, future versions skipped it. no need for gravity assists either. this thing has over 500 m/s more than strictly needed for a minmus mission, which is enough to compensate for all inaccuracies caused by the lack of maneuver nodes.

[Scarecrow71]

My problem here is that I want to LAND on Minmus, not just fly-by.  I've seen all of these people out here do all these cool things in the Caveman challenge...and I can't.  No matter what I try I'm just not, for whatever reason, getting it done.  It's frustrating considering on Normal difficulty I can do almost anything I can think of.  Why am I having such a difficult time on HARD?

My other major issue here is that I cannot find a tutorial on how to rendezvous without having any upgraded buildings.  Everything I'm finding uses maneuver nodes and patched conics, which I don't have access to in this career.  Everyone says "Well, you really should learn how to do it".  Yeah, I know how to do it with maneuver nodes.  But I can't find anything to help me learn how to do this without them.

Edited September 15 by Scarecrow71

[JeDoesStuff]

On 9/13/2024 at 9:08 PM, king of nowhere said:

you can go to minmus without any of that too.

that did the trick. no fairings - i never could afford to pay their tech, but this thing is reasonably aerodynamic anyway. it does require a bobcat engine, but you can get one with a contract without unlocking the tech node. the spark engine doesn't really help, future versions skipped it. no need for gravity assists either. this thing has over 500 m/s more than strictly needed for a minmus mission, which is enough to compensate for all inaccuracies caused by the lack of maneuver nodes.

ah yeah so I didnt have that stuff unlocked yet, i dont think i had unlocked the terrier yet. This is what I used once I had unlocked the terrier:

As for the lowest tech possible, I managed to get to minmus with tier 3 tech only, which i found the craft for:

This needed two mun assists to get back to kerbin, which i had to do without patched connics. I might make a video on this challenge sometime.