[0.22.X] BobCat ind. Historical spacecraft thread

[HGGundamReviews]

It didn't use to do this though. Something changed, with either MJ2 or Kliper itself.

Pre 0.20 I had no problems. I have the exact same .craft files for my Soyuz/Kliper, all that changed inbetween was 0.20/MJ2.0.8/Soviet Pack .20 version. The answer lies in what change is causing this new problem. I'm starting to suspect Mechjeb is the issue here, I've noticed several ASAS problems since the last upgrade. Ship stability is very wonky now.

The Proton rocket isn't stable anymore either. It spins like a top unless I slap 16 canards on the thing to stabilize it.

[daver4470]

The Proton rocket isn't stable anymore either. It spins like a top unless I slap 16 canards on the thing to stabilize it.

I think there was some sort of change in aerodynamics in the KSP engine itself in 0.20 or something. Things definitely seem different. The Soyuz has been fine for me, though, although it does have a bit of a tendency to put itself into a roll.

[Good_Apollo]

Well here's something odd. I removed the wings and control surfaces and guess what? The rocket made it to the gravity turn but upon starting it, it rolled horizontally then flipped over. I then tried again with wings/cs removed AND the Klipers nose ASAS removed and it flew perfectly at all points of the flight. Dunno what that means specifically but it's something.

I don't really understand how Mechjeb works but is it having a conflict with the additional ASAS? Disabling it had no effect, I had to remove the part itself. Perhaps it's an issue with the AdvancedSASToggle plugin?

Edited May 30, 2013 by Good_Apollo

[daver4470]

I got the flipping Orion. I think it's not a problem with a conflict or anything -- it's just that the Orion/Ares is really top heavy. Good_Apollo's post pretty much convinces me that the problem with the Kliper is aerodynamic. (Or the ASAS might be grossly overpowered.)

For the Orion -- and, I think for the Kliper (but I haven't tested it) -- it's a fairly simple fix in MechJeb. Just start the gravity turn high -- after second stage ignition for the Ares (20-25km works great), and above the thickest part of the atmosphere (so >25km at least) for the Kliper.

Edit: also works with the Kliper. I set the grav turn to begin at 30km, and then dropped the curve to 5%. The Soyuz flies a Shuttle-like trajectory -- mostly vertical until about 60km, then almost horizontal from there on out. No problems whatsoever, although it looks weird.

Edited May 30, 2013 by daver4470

[HGGundamReviews]

I'm thinking and I hate to say this. That all these models, Soviet Pack, ISS, American Pack might need to be taken back to the wire frame and reworked given the changes made in 0.20.

[Good_Apollo]

I got the flipping Orion. I think it's not a problem with a conflict or anything -- it's just that the Orion/Ares is really top heavy. Good_Apollo's post pretty much convinces me that the problem with the Kliper is aerodynamic. (Or the ASAS might be grossly overpowered.)

For the Orion -- and, I think for the Kliper (but I haven't tested it) -- it's a fairly simple fix in MechJeb Just start the gravity turn high -- after second stage ignition for the Ares (20-25km works great), and above the thickest part of the atmosphere (so >25km at least) for the Kliper.

This is the case for the Orion (It's a gimbal issue on the SRB coupled with shifting mass as pointed out previously) but not the Kliper. Changing the gravity turn rate and/or altitude has zero effect because, as I've already pointed out numerous times, the Kliper never makes it to the gravity turn. It flips FAR below the altitude set for the turn; it's irrelevant. I think I've narrowed it down to an issue with the ASAS and Mechjeb 2.0.8...I don't know enough about how ASAS configs or control surface configs coupled with how Mechjeb operates to give any significant input on a fix but I believe it's somewhere in there.

I'm thinking and I hate to say this. That all these models, Soviet Pack, ISS, American Pack might need to be taken back to the wire frame and reworked given the changes made in 0.20.

This isn't necessary at all and I wouldn't ask Bobcat to do that. I think this is a simple problem but one that might be out of his hands if the issue is specifically with Mechjeb 2.0.8 Edited May 30, 2013 by Good_Apollo

[Guest]

I've been flying the Soyuz and the Orion on a fresh install of .20 with MechJeb 2.0.8.56, and aside from a few MJ ascent profile tweaks they are flying just fine. In fact, the Soyuz has never flown better. MechJeb and Crew Manifest are the only plugins I'm using. I agree with Good_Apollo, there is no reason to burn these vessels down and rebuild them.

[Good_Apollo]

I've been flying the Soyuz and the Orion on a fresh install of .20 with MechJeb 2.0.8.56, and aside from a few MJ ascent profile tweaks they are flying just fine. In fact, the Soyuz has never flown better. MechJeb and Crew Manifest are the only plugins I'm using.

No problems with the Soyuz/Kliper? Because nobody has had issues with the TMA/Progress payloads for the Soyuz.

[daver4470]

I'm thinking and I hate to say this. That all these models, Soviet Pack, ISS, American Pack might need to be taken back to the wire frame and reworked given the changes made in 0.20.

I disagree completely. The Ares/Orion stack is SUPPOSED to be top-heavy -- that's the design. BobCat's model is realistic. It's up to us to figure out how to fly it. And, like I said, it's easy if you understand that you can't steer with the solid. The real Ares would almost certainly have flown at a near-vertical attitude until first stage sep. This reflects that.

[HGGundamReviews]

Well look at my post a few up about my issues trying to relaunch the MIR. I removed all the mods except Soviet Pack and the updated docking cam. And got the exact same results. There is something wrong either with the CFG's or the models.

[daver4470]

This is the case for the Orion (It's a gimbal issue on the SRB coupled with shifting mass as pointed out previously) but not the Kliper. Changing the gravity turn rate and/or altitude has zero effect because, as I've already pointed out numerous times, the Kliper never makes it to the gravity turn. It flips FAR below the altitude set for the turn; it's irrelevant. I think I've narrowed it down to an issue with the ASAS and Mechjeb 2.0.8...I don't know enough about how ASAS configs or control surface configs coupled with how Mechjeb operates to give any significant input on a fix but I believe it's somewhere in there.

I've just, in the past 20 minutes, flown the Kliper completely on MechJeb three times successfully. If the turn's above 25km or so, it turns fine. All the time. The Kliper problem is the flaps and ailerons on the Kliper imparting too much steering force to the stack and making it impossible to steer with engine gimbal alone. Making sure the craft is being steered above the level where the aerodynamic surfaces have an effect fixes the problem. Always. If it's not working that way for you, you might have a different problem entirely....

[Good_Apollo]

Well look at my post a few up about my issues trying to relaunch the MIR. I removed all the mods except Soviet Pack and the updated docking cam. And got the exact same results. There is something wrong either with the CFG's or the models.

The Proton had issues pre-.20 but it worked. It was wobbly and mucked up gravity turns but it always managed to get where I wanted it, at the expense of some fuel...but I always had extra anyway. Now, nothings changed in that regard except that it does, true, spin now in addition. It hasn't impeded my progress and I've already rebuilt Mir post-0.20 with no failed flights. Have you been having actual issues with getting Mir components into orbit via Proton?

[EDIT] Ah reread your post. You're having the center-of-gravity-falling-out issue. I believe, that you have an old version of Romfarer installed/incorrectly installed. Make sure to only have one instance of it as well.

I've just, in the past 20 minutes, flown the Kliper completely on MechJeb three times successfully. If the turn's above 25km or so, it turns fine. All the time. The Kliper problem is the flaps and ailerons on the Kliper imparting too much steering force to the stack and making it impossible to steer with engine gimbal alone. Making sure the craft is being steered above the level where the aerodynamic surfaces have an effect fixes the problem. Always. If it's not working that way for you, you might have a different problem entirely....

Send me your craft file if you will. Edited May 30, 2013 by Good_Apollo

[daver4470]

Well look at my post a few up about my issues trying to relaunch the MIR. I removed all the mods except Soviet Pack and the updated docking cam. And got the exact same results. There is something wrong either with the CFG's or the models.

Sorry -- I misinterpreted your comment. I thought you were saying that out of all the models, the American pack needed to be fixed. I think of all of them, the American pack is probably the one that works the best right now....

[Guest]

No problems with the Soyuz/Kliper? Because nobody has had issues with the TMA/Progress payloads for the Soyuz.

My biggest problem with the Kliper is landing the beastie. Rockets are easy. Put wings on it, and I'm rubbish.

[HGGundamReviews]

Good_Apollo the proton isn't the issue. Its the MIR parts. Something in this is failing in such a way that the game thinks it's been destroyed when it hasn't and I lose control of the launch vehicle. When that happens even MJ can't control it. I can only regain control by turning the engines off in flight quickly switching to the tracking station and then back to the ship in flight (usually just past 12-13km as this happens right after the gravity turn starts) and restarting the engines. Then usually within 10-15 seconds after I regain control it happens again. The output_Log file states "Mir Probe Core Destroyed at 0.0 atm Pressure" when in fact nothing has been destroyed. So like I said it's either the CFG file or the model not working properly with 0.20.1.

[daver4470]

The Proton had issues pre-.20 but it worked. It was wobbly and mucked up gravity turns but it always managed to get where I wanted it, at the expense of some fuel...but I always had extra anyway. Now, nothings changed in that regard except that it does, true, spin now in addition. It hasn't impeded my progress and I've already rebuilt Mir post-0.20 with no failed flights. Have you been having actual issues with getting Mir components into orbit via Proton?

[EDIT] Ah reread your post. You're having the center-of-gravity-falling-out issue. I believe, that you have an old version of Romfarer installed/incorrectly installed. Make sure to only have one instance of it as well.

Send me your craft file if you will.

Just tested Proton -- had no problems.

[daver4470]

Good_Apollo the proton isn't the issue. Its the MIR parts. Something in this is failing in such a way that the game thinks it's been destroyed when it hasn't and I lose control of the launch vehicle. When that happens even MJ can't control it. I can only regain control by turning the engines off in flight quickly switching to the tracking station and then back to the ship in flight (usually just past 12-13km as this happens right after the gravity turn starts) and restarting the engines. Then usually within 10-15 seconds after I regain control it happens again. The output_Log file states "Mir Probe Core Destroyed at 0.0 atm Pressure" when in fact nothing has been destroyed. So like I said it's either the CFG file or the model not working properly with 0.20.1.

Could the attachment node between the Mir and the Proton payload decoupler be breaking? That's a weird and frustrating problem....

EDIT: Mir still works in my 0.20 install. There's a mod-related memory issue with 0.20.1; maybe that's screwing up your launch? (That's why I'm still using 0.20 -- 0.20.1 won't load due to the memory problem.)

Edited May 30, 2013 by daver4470

[Good_Apollo]

Good_Apollo the proton isn't the issue. Its the MIR parts. Something in this is failing in such a way that the game thinks it's been destroyed when it hasn't and I lose control of the launch vehicle. When that happens even MJ can't control it. I can only regain control by turning the engines off in flight quickly switching to the tracking station and then back to the ship in flight (usually just past 12-13km as this happens right after the gravity turn starts) and restarting the engines. Then usually within 10-15 seconds after I regain control it happens again. The output_Log file states "Mir Probe Core Destroyed at 0.0 atm Pressure" when in fact nothing has been destroyed. So like I said it's either the CFG file or the model not working properly with 0.20.1.

That seems to be an isolated problem. Post your .craft and full logs. I think it's a Romfarer issue, there have been a few scattered reports of strange problems that others can't replicate and he's been asking for logs to hunt down the bugs. Edited May 30, 2013 by Good_Apollo

[Thourion]

From my launches i got:

Proton, Proton with mechjeb, Soyuz, Soyuz with Mechjeb, Kliper just fine. Haven't tested the american pack yet.

All launches with appropriate payloads, either my own custom made, or with intended bobcats. Example Progress with Soyuz, Mir with proton etc etc.

Only problem is with Kliper and mechjeb, as i also see a "jittering" problem with Mjeb while trying to control any ship. In klipers case, since its sensitive, and that flapping effect you get with mjeb, results in failures.

So in my case, everything is good. If i want to fly the kliper i do a launch with ASAS, and only activate jeb when i am out of kerbins atmo for docking and pro/retrograde maneuvers.

[Guest]

Just tested Proton -- had no problems.

I just ran a quick and dirty test flight of Proton with an extended Gemini craft (yeah, I'm nutty that way), and same report. No problems.

[HGGundamReviews]

Here is the craft file and the Output_log file from KSP_Data folder. I just did a clean launch with No MJ or anything on it, and it happened again. I checked and the only Rom mod I have installed is the 0.20 updated docking cam I removed the files from Bobcat's installs because I had the updated one already.

http://www./download/d7299ivv9h0nrpr/MIr_Launch_Problems_craft_And_Outout_log_File.zip

[BobCat]

Any chance get video this problem ?

[HGGundamReviews]

I don't have the ability to record. I use a laptop and FFsplit and KSP don't play well on this acer.

[wulf899]

I'm having the same problem with the ISS... the assembled craft put into orbit using hyperedit.. but i cant dock anything to it.... the docking ports just dont work.

This is the exact issue that I have. I've used HyperEdit to put the ISS up into space, however whenever I try to launch a soyuz rocket and dock it with the ISS, the docking ports aren't responsive. No magnetic forces, nothing. I've tried every type of port available on the ISS and yet none of them are responsive.

To add insult to injury, the 0.21 version has just been released, and some of the BobCat parts (specifically Soyuz and Progress, the causative parts vary) cause KSP to crash.

Sorry BobCat, but I guess this is a forewarning of people banging at your door to hurry up with the compatability

EDIT: One of the parts is the following: BobCatind/Parts/SoyuzTMA_Instrument_Servis_module/model000. Hope that helps you out.

Edited May 30, 2013 by wulf899

[Good_Apollo]

This is the exact issue that I have. I've used HyperEdit to put the ISS up into space, however whenever I try to launch a soyuz rocket and dock it with the ISS, the docking ports aren't responsive. No magnetic forces, nothing. I've tried every type of port available on the ISS and yet none of them are responsive.

To add insult to injury, the 0.21 version has just been released, and some of the BobCat parts (specifically Soyuz and Progress, the causative parts vary) cause KSP to crash.

Sorry BobCat, but I guess this is a forewarning of people banging at your door to hurry up with the compatability

You aren't alone, I was just trying to test stuff related to this thread and I CTD without notice after a few minutes. Apparently KSP 0.21 has a problem with .png textures and causes them to use waaaaaaaaaaaay more memory than required. I hope Squad fixes this asap...