Colonisation/terraforming - Eve vs Duna

[rodion_herrera]

Just been exploring eve as of late (unmanned lander yesterday, and just a few minutes ago, a rover). I noticed two things. First, kind of strange to have (what appears to me) such a dark atmosphere, considering it's closer to the sun than Kerbin. True, Venus' sky might be dark too, but that's because of the thick clouds, and there are no thick clouds on eve. So I wonder what's causing the gloomy feel?

Second point, my rover, after the batteries died (badly positioned folding solar array broke up upon deployment hahaha), just kept rolling on, and when encountering uphills, would then roll back down again...but I noticed that sometimes, it would slide slightly sidewards every now and then. So I was wondering, if Eve has an atmosphere 5 times that of Kerbin, shouldn't the "air" in Eve be like, "thick and gooey" and would hinder the progress of unpowered vehicles (like a dead rover)? Just something to discuss, not really a critique

[Perdog]

Precisely, all forms of power generation that I'm aware of generate heat as a bi-product. Might as well do something with it.

[NASAFanboy]

Since my Eve missions require three launches of a HLLV(Habitat, Eve-Ascent Vehicle, Kerbin Return Craft), compared the Duna's two (Habitat and ERV), I'd say Duna is cheaper.

[fenderzilla]

The atmosphere in Duna is really thin, which would mean that more light would come through and solar power would be easier. Eve's atmosphere is super dense and opaque-ish, so solar power would actually be a lot harder.

also, I'm assuming the polar caps of Duna are carbon dioxide and not ice, since Duna is analogous to mars and Mars's Polar caps are made of CO2.

Edited July 31, 2013 by fenderzilla

[fenderzilla]

Some people say laythe is the best place for a new colony, but there are some things to consider:

laythe's oceans, although liquid water, must be very, very salty to prevent it from freezing, as its temperature is far below zero celsius

It's halfway across the solar system, so getting there and back would be net to impossible

it's unlikely that there is an abundance of anything that could be used for energy or rocket fuel - even solar power would be sparse as it is so far away from the sun.

most importantly - it's too close to Jool. at certain points in its orbit, it would pass close enough to the gravitational field of Jool to be bathed in trillions of ionically charged particles - i think it's something like that on io - essentially irradiating the entire planet's surface. you could work out some sort of way to draw power from this, but your bases would have to have heavy radiation shielding. I think that this would make it impossible to terraform it into an inhabitable world.

[FortyCaliber]

We actually have no idea what the oceans are Eve are made of. It could be liquid plutonium for all we know. Also, the difference in solar power probably isn't major enough to matter here, but I haven't done many interplanetary missions so I'll let someone more experienced say something on that.

Unlikely: Plutonium has a melting point of 639C at 1 atm.

[Moon Goddess]

We do know what Eve's oceans are made of... The in progress resource chart makes no indication of being able to get water from Eve's oceans but you can get Propellium, and Blutonium. I don't know where those fit on the periodic table but wherever it is, I don't want to drink either.

[mknote]

Some people say laythe is the best place for a new colony, but there are some things to consider:

laythe's oceans, although liquid water, must be very, very salty to prevent it from freezing, as its temperature is far below zero celsius

It's halfway across the solar system, so getting there and back would be net to impossible

it's unlikely that there is an abundance of anything that could be used for energy or rocket fuel - even solar power would be sparse as it is so far away from the sun.

most importantly - it's too close to Jool. at certain points in its orbit, it would pass close enough to the gravitational field of Jool to be bathed in trillions of ionically charged particles - i think it's something like that on io - essentially irradiating the entire planet's surface. you could work out some sort of way to draw power from this, but your bases would have to have heavy radiation shielding. I think that this would make it impossible to terraform it into an inhabitable world.

Wrong on almost all counts.

1.) There is no reason no believe that Laythe's oceans are any more salty than Earth's because, contrary to your statement, Laythe's temperatures are not far below 0 °C; in fact, it's above freezing, at a balmy 6.21 °C.

2.) The best point of the three, but hardly insurmountable. I've made several trips to Laythe already, and with practice it could become a quite routine, if tedious, task.

3.) There's an important difference between Io and Laythe, namely the fact that Laythe has an atmosphere. Not a thin one, either, but one nearly as thick as Earth/Kerbin. This alone would be enough to eliminate much of the radiation problem, but it's also quite possible that Laythe could have a significant magnetic field. After all, going by the acceleration due to gravity (which seem to me to be the best way to compare the bizarre Kerbal world to real life, as the strength of gravity is quite comparable between the two whereas mass, density, size, etc. are not), Laythe would probably be comparable in mass to Venus. Now, Venus doesn't have a global magnetic field, but this is because it rotates extremely slowly and its core is not convecting, likely due to Venus' smaller size and thus lower internal temperature. Laythe, by contrast, rotates far more quickly and has its interior heated by tidal heating, which could very well be enough to produce a dynamo and thus a global magnetic field. Further supporting this is the fact that the real-life Galilean moon Ganymede has a magnetic field despite having a lower mass than Venus (and thus to the comparable mass of Laythe). It's highly likely, then, that Laythe has a rather strong magnetic field, which would shield it it from the radiation from Jool's magnetosphere and give it almost constant and absolutely stunning aurora.

In conclusion, Laythe is far and away the most habitable place in the Kerb system aside from Kerbin itself, with the only real barrier to colonization being its distance from the homeworld.

[Maddmatts]

The biggest issue on the topic of terraforming Venus and Mars is their lack of a magnetosphere. Without one, long-term terraforming is completely futile. Because of the carbon-dioxide content, any oxygen released would be displaced upwards where the solar winds are slowly eroding the atmosphere away. If Eve and Duna are similar in this way, then terraforming either would be futile too. As others mentioned above, we need magnetometers in-game to know for sure.

Earth/Kerbin are increadibly special.

[harleyro]

How can Eve have water in it's oceans if the temperature at sea level is over 100 degrees celsius?

Water boils at 100 Celsius, you are correct. However, The pressure causes the boiling point to go up. Similar to your car, it is under pressure, so the boiling point rises.

[RuBisCO]

The magnetosphere issue of Mars and Venus are minor on time scales of thousands or only a few million years, its over a billion or more years that its a serious problem. A terraformed mars or venus (or both) terraformed in a few thousand or even few hundred years would have a "stable" atmosphere in the former's sense. In fact the only thing venus lost from solar wind was most of its water... oh. Laythe has a magnetosphere or rather Jool's magnetosphere, to protect it (assuming Jool is like Jupiter)

In should be pointed out that our magnetosphere does not protect us from radiation, our atmosphere does. Without a magnetosphere radiation levels here on earth's surface should not rise, rather over eons without a magnetosphere our atmosphere would be striped away by the solar wind. Laythe atmosphere likewise should protect it's surface from ionizing radiation.

In real life for a moon like Laythe to exist it atmosphere must be made out of wicked green house gasses, like mostly methane or something, such an atmosphere would be logically incompatible with oxygen. Mars by the way could be made warm in just a century with a concerted effort to pollute its atmosphere with SF6 (sulfure hexafloride: most powerful greenhouse gas known, also very stable and very heavy) making martian air breathable is a little harder.

[Kimberly]

Wouldn't you solve most issues of colonizing Laythe by building underwater? Laythe has no changing tides, but it does have strong winds. The water shields you from the radiation, and if Laythe water has roughly the density of seawater on Earth, you could go to a depth of roughly 42 meters before you break even with Eve's pressure, and you probably don't need to go that deep. It should even slightly increase the gravity you experience, bringing it closer to Kerbin's. You can keep unmanned modules on land, including an automated or remote-controlled launch facility. You can capture/vent Laythe's air to travel up and down through buoyancy.

[SargeRho]

Mars and Venus have atmospheres. Mars' is about 1/100th that of Earth, while Venus' is I think 90 times as thick as Earth's.

[Jack the Kerbonaut]

Duna:

Low Gravity: Muscle and bone density lowers over time.

Temperature: Too low Freeze to death.

Atmosphere: Thin atmospheric pressure would be also low serious effects on exposed bodies.

H2O: present however in its solid frozen form, unseasonable energy requirements to melt through heating methods.However if possible water may provide a suitable atmosphere if plant life could be introduced and photosynthesis could occur.

Magnetic Field: If the analogue for Mars is the same, the magnetic field does not exist and would slowly slowly tear the atmosphere away.

Duna's biggest problems are the lower gravity and magnetic field which would be the hardest if not impossible to influence making Duna unsuitable for terraforming.

Eve:

Eve also does not have a magnetic field if it is correct to its real life partner Venus.

Eve has suitable ASL gravity.

However the Atmospheric pressure is higher than of Kerbin and poses problems to exposed life forms. However the possibility of photosynthesis and chemosynthesis by extremophiles could slowly convert the CO2 and sulphur rich atmosphere into a Kerbal friendly environment provide Water was freely available for use in photosynthesis.

The temperature however would still be far higher than that of a Kerbin so would limit the introduction of life onto eve.

Neither Planets would be very suitable for terra-forming however if I had the chance to choose to visit either of the planets it would be Duna.

[way2smrt]

I'm going to say Eve just because it looks purple.

[Sapphire]

I think Duna. I could be wrong, but generating a thicker, breathable atmosphere would presumably absorb more heat from the sun. Not to mention that the lower gravity is a plus.

[Kimberly]

I think Duna. I could be wrong, but generating a thicker, breathable atmosphere would presumably absorb more heat from the sun. Not to mention that the lower gravity is a plus.

Speaking of atmosphere...I wonder how it would fare if you vaproized its ice caps, which are presumably made up of CO2 and water like Mars'. It'd take a lot of time and energy, but you'd end up with a significantly thicker atmosphere. Water vapor's a potent greenhouse gas. Then you'd have to get the CO2 levels down to something plants can deal with, and you can let the photosynthesis begin!

[Commander Zoom]

INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER.

(props to Asimov.)

[AfailingHORSE]

Eve is great for colonies....

...penal colonies that is.

[Tom K.]

What about Duna in the ice caps?

They are made out of CO2

[chaos_forge]

Duna. Because lower gravity is fun. Higher gravity is less fun.

And also Laythe is obviously the most suitable habitat for Kerbals seeing as it's already pretty kerbin-like (presence of oxygen in the atmosphere indicates life)

Edited July 17, 2013 by chaos_forge

[Kerbface]

The magnetosphere issue of Mars and Venus are minor on time scales of thousands or only a few million years, its over a billion or more years that its a serious problem. A terraformed mars or venus (or both) terraformed in a few thousand or even few hundred years would have a "stable" atmosphere in the former's sense. In fact the only thing venus lost from solar wind was most of its water... oh. Laythe has a magnetosphere or rather Jool's magnetosphere, to protect it (assuming Jool is like Jupiter)

In should be pointed out that our magnetosphere does not protect us from radiation, our atmosphere does. Without a magnetosphere radiation levels here on earth's surface should not rise, rather over eons without a magnetosphere our atmosphere would be striped away by the solar wind. Laythe atmosphere likewise should protect it's surface from ionizing radiation.

In real life for a moon like Laythe to exist it atmosphere must be made out of wicked green house gasses, like mostly methane or something, such an atmosphere would be logically incompatible with oxygen. Mars by the way could be made warm in just a century with a concerted effort to pollute its atmosphere with SF6 (sulfure hexafloride: most powerful greenhouse gas known, also very stable and very heavy) making martian air breathable is a little harder.

Interesting post. People do seem to forget that atmosphere stripping isn't something that happens in years, or decades, or centuries, or millenia, it's a very slow process. I'd be interested to hear more about your thoughts on terraforming and creating an atmosphere. Where does the SF6 come from? Is it something that can be created using resources already on Mars?

[Sir Nahme]

(presence of oxygen in the atmosphere indicates life)

I'm sorry but every time I see someone post this I have to laugh

It's such a ridiculous idea, the only reason it persists is because we have the mother of all sampling bias'

It is PRIMARILY released in OUR atmosphere by photosynthesis, however it is NOT exclusive to that process. Any body with outgassing will have oxygen in it's atmosphere

[AfailingHORSE]

(presence of oxygen in the atmosphere indicates life)

When oxygen first formed on Earth, it nearly killed all life that was on Earth at the time, it was poison it which only a few extremophiles at the time were able to live with. Edited July 17, 2013 by AfailingHORSE

[SargeRho]

Actually, Life is responsible for the appearance of Oxygen...Cyanobacteria.